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Ghosts in the machine... !

Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
in Studio & Recording
Okay so for some time I've experienced very random audio dropouts and glitches on both my Windows and Hackintosh OSX partitions of my machine. I want to emphasise that it's on Windows as well, because this isn't anything to do with the fact that I'm running a Hackintosh. It's something I've been tolerating for a number of years because I can't get to the bottom of why it happens.

I'll be playing a project happy as Larry, and I'll get a dropout or an audio glitch regardless of sample-rate, buffer-size, how many plugins I'm running, or how many tracks in the DAW I've got. Sometimes it will happen every 20-40minutes to perhaps an hour, but it is very irregular and thus hard to reproduce. So tracking it down has proved very difficult.

When I run Open Hardware Monitor the machine runs at a reasonable 50-55degrees C, which considering I am running an overclocked 4.6ghz machine isn't too bad. But the dropouts correspond with a big jump in the core CPU wattage use. The need for more wattage also makes the fans spin up a bit faster.

But this all happened on my first setup which was NOT overclocked, and even if on the current setup I remove all my overclock settings, it still happens. So I'm fairly sure the OC is not the culprit.

When I run DPC latency checker on Windows the thing that has the most DPC's is wdf01000.sys - which is a system driver library iirc. But as I say, it happens on OSX too - so I don't think this is a software thing.

It could be a hardware thing but what makes it strange is it has happened across two iterations of this machine.

Here's the specs for the first machine which I built in 2011 (including everything!):

Case: Fractal Designs R2
PSU: Corsair RM650 modular PSU
CPU: Intel Core i7-2600K 3.40 GHz, Sandybridge
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-P67A-UD3P-B3, Intel P67
Cooler: Scythe Mugen 2 Quiet CPU Cooler
GFX: Gigabyte GTX 650 Ti 2GB
RAM: Corsair Vengeance 8GB 1866MHz
HDD: 3x Western Digital Caviar Black HDD
SSD: 2x Samsung 840 SSD's

Current setup (new bits emphasised) which I finished upgrading this January:

Case: Fractal Designs R2
PSU: Corsair RM650 modular PSU
CPU: Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0 GHz, Haswell
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-z97-d3h
Cooler: Noctua NH-U14S
GFX: Gigabyte GTX 650 Ti 2GB
RAM: Corsair Vengeance Pro Series 16GB 2400Mhz
HDD: 3x Western Digital Caviar Black HDD
SSD: 2x Samsung 840 SSD's

Here is what I've tried:

- Different interfaces (MOTU 8-Pre, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20, Line 6 Helix, MOTU 828x).
- Removing mechanical HDD's, made no difference.
- Running onboard graphics and it made no difference, thus I'm not convinced upgrading the graphics card would solve this.
- Tweaking BIOS c-states - made no difference.
- Using a different computer - my work provided Macbook Pro which had has no such audio dropouts with the same interfaces, and in fact I used for recording two gigs recently and it performed flawlessly with no issues. I used my Scarlett.

Check this out:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0cinmzym2l3pykf/HardwareMonitor.PNG?dl=1

Each one of those orange peaks on the load graph roughly corresponds to a 1-2second audio dropout. So today I've had roughly 15 of them. Not a huge deal, but can be a bit of a mood killer. This is a puzzle that I've just not been able to solve.

So basically I've had this minor niggly issue since 2011 up to present day, which really sucks when you think about it. I keep hovering my fingers over the buy button on a refurbished Mac Mini or something like that.. but I've invested a lot of cash in this machine and I want it to work flawlessly! Unless I'm just expecting too much?!

The machine before this one, a Q6600 setup, that one performed flawlessly! Just couldn't quite handle what I was throwing at it towards the end; or I got greedy for an i7 - I forget!
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Comments

  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    If it's wdf01000.sys with high latency then it's more than likely masking a driver that's causing the actual latency. 

    Now the driver fault will either be a problem with the driver itself, or the hardware it's trying to run. 

    Given its screwed on the hachintosh too, I'd say you've got a dodgy bit of hardware somewhere - might even be an iffy cable or something stupid like that...
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6264
    Drew,

    lately I've been getting the same thing, and its driving me nuts. No predictablility to it, I can have one VST running, or just audio and it will do it, but I may have 20 tracks of synths going on, and not a problem.

    mood killer indeed.

    also random latency issues with recordring bass or guitar.

    I may start by getting new interface (KOmplete 6 atm)
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Snap said:
    Drew,

    lately I've been getting the same thing, and its driving me nuts. No predictablility to it, I can have one VST running, or just audio and it will do it, but I may have 20 tracks of synths going on, and not a problem.

    mood killer indeed.

    also random latency issues with recordring bass or guitar.

    I may start by getting new interface (KOmplete 6 atm)
    For you did it start happening recently?? For me it's happened for ages.

    I don't know what the cause is but given it happens across two operating systems that are on different SSDs, I don't think it's an OS issue causing it. I don't think it's a hard-drive causing it. I've tried multiple soundcards, so I don't think it's an audio interface issue. I've tried multiple CPU's and motherboards, so I don't think they are causing it. Tried different graphic cards, so that's not the cause.

    Only thing I can think now is that it's a weird 'dying on it's arse' SATA cable issue, or  that Gigabyte motherboards aren't good for audio performance.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Snap said:
    Drew,

    lately I've been getting the same thing, and its driving me nuts. No predictablility to it, I can have one VST running, or just audio and it will do it, but I may have 20 tracks of synths going on, and not a problem.

    mood killer indeed.

    also random latency issues with recordring bass or guitar.

    I may start by getting new interface (KOmplete 6 atm)
    For you did it start happening recently?? For me it's happened for ages.

    I don't know what the cause is but given it happens across two operating systems that are on different SSDs, I don't think it's an OS issue causing it. I don't think it's a hard-drive causing it. I've tried multiple soundcards, so I don't think it's an audio interface issue. I've tried multiple CPU's and motherboards, so I don't think they are causing it. Tried different graphic cards, so that's not the cause.

    Only thing I can think now is that it's a weird 'dying on it's arse' SATA cable issue, or  that Gigabyte motherboards aren't good for audio performance.
    Yep. If you've reused cables in your rebuilds then my money is on that. Or a PSU cable, or a quirky odd item somewhere along the route that's flipping out a driver and causing the core OS to spaz.


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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Snap said:
    Drew,

    lately I've been getting the same thing, and its driving me nuts. No predictablility to it, I can have one VST running, or just audio and it will do it, but I may have 20 tracks of synths going on, and not a problem.

    mood killer indeed.

    also random latency issues with recordring bass or guitar.

    I may start by getting new interface (KOmplete 6 atm)
    For you did it start happening recently?? For me it's happened for ages.

    I don't know what the cause is but given it happens across two operating systems that are on different SSDs, I don't think it's an OS issue causing it. I don't think it's a hard-drive causing it. I've tried multiple soundcards, so I don't think it's an audio interface issue. I've tried multiple CPU's and motherboards, so I don't think they are causing it. Tried different graphic cards, so that's not the cause.

    Only thing I can think now is that it's a weird 'dying on it's arse' SATA cable issue, or  that Gigabyte motherboards aren't good for audio performance.
    Yep. If you've reused cables in your rebuilds then my money is on that. Or a PSU cable, or a quirky odd item somewhere along the route that's flipping out a driver and causing the core OS to spaz.


    Can easily replace the SATA cables. The PSU cables would be more pricey and I somehow doubt it's them tbh. They're fairly new, within the last two years anyway. The SATA cables are much older.

    Could it be anything else??
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
    Yep. Have physically removed the graphics card. Have reseated all cables. Have disconnected everything except one SSD hard-drive, and the dropouts still occur. It happens more often on the OSX partition I've noticed.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
    Yep. Have physically removed the graphics card. Have reseated all cables. Have disconnected everything except one SSD hard-drive, and the dropouts still occur. It happens more often on the OSX partition I've noticed.
    And for each time you've tried stuff have you had USB devices plugged in?
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
    Yep. Have physically removed the graphics card. Have reseated all cables. Have disconnected everything except one SSD hard-drive, and the dropouts still occur. It happens more often on the OSX partition I've noticed.
    And for each time you've tried stuff have you had USB devices plugged in?
    Yep. Mouse. Keyboard. Soundcard. iLok.

    Also ethernet - which is built in, not a usb or PCI(E) card.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
    Yep. Have physically removed the graphics card. Have reseated all cables. Have disconnected everything except one SSD hard-drive, and the dropouts still occur. It happens more often on the OSX partition I've noticed.
    And for each time you've tried stuff have you had USB devices plugged in?
    Yep. Mouse. Keyboard. Soundcard. iLok.

    Also ethernet - which is built in, not a usb or PCI(E) card.
    In my experience, with Windows (esp. 7 & 8) wdf01000.sys falls over if the USB stack is foo-bah'd. Oddly, it usually causes a BSOD, but that seems to have been fixed with Win10.

    I'm more often than not a Mac person tho, and whilst you don't get massive crashes, I do notice some USB devices causing odd behaviour if they are even slightly out of kilter. 

    My money is on a glitch in your USB chain somewhere due to a dodgy USB device or cable. Course, without being in front of it it's difficult to say for sure. I've known wdf01000.sys errors causing BSOD be due to low batteries in a device or a very slightly dodgy usb cable (which is really very irritating.....ffs!)
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Honestly? It's hardware somewhere.

    I know this sounds stupid but have you opened it up and checked every single cable is seated correctly and clipped in properly? 

    Having said that - if you've had it for as long as you have then it's most likely actual duff hardware somewhere. Have you removed the graphics card rather than just swapping to on board? Even if disabled it can have an effect if it's plugged in.
    Yep. Have physically removed the graphics card. Have reseated all cables. Have disconnected everything except one SSD hard-drive, and the dropouts still occur. It happens more often on the OSX partition I've noticed.
    And for each time you've tried stuff have you had USB devices plugged in?
    Yep. Mouse. Keyboard. Soundcard. iLok.

    Also ethernet - which is built in, not a usb or PCI(E) card.
    In my experience, with Windows (esp. 7 & 8) wdf01000.sys falls over if the USB stack is foo-bah'd. Oddly, it usually causes a BSOD, but that seems to have been fixed with Win10.

    I'm more often than not a Mac person tho, and whilst you don't get massive crashes, I do notice some USB devices causing odd behaviour if they are even slightly out of kilter. 

    My money is on a glitch in your USB chain somewhere due to a dodgy USB device or cable. Course, without being in front of it it's difficult to say for sure. I've known wdf01000.sys errors causing BSOD be due to low batteries in a device or a very slightly dodgy usb cable (which is really very irritating.....ffs!)
    Here's what I'm gonna do:

    - Replace the SATA cables
    - Disconnect my front case USB ports
    - Run my test session again with everything except my audio interface plugged in.

    And then just sit there monitoring it for audio-dropouts. The problem with this is I need to sit there for at least an hour with the project just looping to be sure of where I'm at. Quite tiring.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Yes- that sounds very tedious. 

    However, if you can, does your latency monitor output a log file? I'm really not convinced that wdf01000.sys really is the issue - it's masking another driver somewhere..... you might see something else peak from time to time, which only a log file would generate... ugh.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Yes- that sounds very tedious. 

    However, if you can, does your latency monitor output a log file? I'm really not convinced that wdf01000.sys really is the issue - it's masking another driver somewhere..... you might see something else peak from time to time, which only a log file would generate... ugh.
    It can output a log file, but I don't think it goes into any details regarding underlying drivers. I'll have to check.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Yes- that sounds very tedious. 

    However, if you can, does your latency monitor output a log file? I'm really not convinced that wdf01000.sys really is the issue - it's masking another driver somewhere..... you might see something else peak from time to time, which only a log file would generate... ugh.
    It can output a log file, but I don't think it goes into any details regarding underlying drivers. I'll have to check.
    Worth checking. If not, you're down to manually guessing which device it is (if unplugging everything does work of course!)
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    Bridgehouse said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Yes- that sounds very tedious. 

    However, if you can, does your latency monitor output a log file? I'm really not convinced that wdf01000.sys really is the issue - it's masking another driver somewhere..... you might see something else peak from time to time, which only a log file would generate... ugh.
    It can output a log file, but I don't think it goes into any details regarding underlying drivers. I'll have to check.
    Worth checking. If not, you're down to manually guessing which device it is (if unplugging everything does work of course!)
    I'm also gonna borrow a Radeon RX460 from work and change my graphics card for a bit. See where that gets me - probably nowhere, but heyy... last resorts and all that!
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Bridgehouse said:
    Yes- that sounds very tedious. 

    However, if you can, does your latency monitor output a log file? I'm really not convinced that wdf01000.sys really is the issue - it's masking another driver somewhere..... you might see something else peak from time to time, which only a log file would generate... ugh.
    It can output a log file, but I don't think it goes into any details regarding underlying drivers. I'll have to check.
    Worth checking. If not, you're down to manually guessing which device it is (if unplugging everything does work of course!)
    I'm also gonna borrow a Radeon RX460 from work and change my graphics card for a bit. See where that gets me - probably nowhere, but heyy... last resorts and all that!
    You're at the point where the two options are:

    - Try absolutely everything no matter how small or silly it is...

    - Bite the bullet and start again with new hardware completely...


    I meant to ask - you have wiped your OS and started from scratch entirely, right?
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    edited May 2017
    I meant to ask - you have wiped your OS and started from scratch entirely, right?
    When I upgraded from the first i7 interation to the second yes, which was around November 2015. Also did it at the start of this year too. So that's three rounds of fresh starts.

    - Bite the bullet and start again with new hardware completely...
    Don't want to do that really. I've invested £1152 in this setup since 2011 judging by my email receipts. I've managed to make a lot of music on this setup, so it's not completely unusable. Which kind of explains why it's been going on so long I suppose!

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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:

    - Bite the bullet and start again with new hardware completely...
    Don't want to do that really. I've invested £1152 in this setup since 2011 judging by my email receipts. I've managed to make a lot of music on this setup, so it's not completely unusable. Which kind of explains why it's been going on so long I suppose!

    You're not far off a decent used Macbook Pro - might even get one for that cost on the refurb store... eek!
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    edited May 2017
    Drew_TNBD said:

    - Bite the bullet and start again with new hardware completely...
    Don't want to do that really. I've invested £1152 in this setup since 2011 judging by my email receipts. I've managed to make a lot of music on this setup, so it's not completely unusable. Which kind of explains why it's been going on so long I suppose!

    You're not far off a decent used Macbook Pro - might even get one for that cost on the refurb store... eek!
    I know right!! I was looking up the prices recently. A refurb Macbook Pro equivalent to what work has loaned me is £2000. Crazy moolah!

    £1152 over 6 and a half years isn't too bad really. £192 a year.
    The initial machine was £857. Additional graphics card was £124ish. The cpu+mobo+ram upgrades were £420ish, and I sold the old CPU+MOBO for £150.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Drew_TNBD said:
    Drew_TNBD said:

    - Bite the bullet and start again with new hardware completely...
    Don't want to do that really. I've invested £1152 in this setup since 2011 judging by my email receipts. I've managed to make a lot of music on this setup, so it's not completely unusable. Which kind of explains why it's been going on so long I suppose!

    You're not far off a decent used Macbook Pro - might even get one for that cost on the refurb store... eek!
    I know right!! I was looking up the prices recently. A refurb Macbook Pro equivalent to what work has loaned me is £2000. Crazy moolah!

    £1152 over 6 and a half years isn't too bad really. £192 a year.
    The initial machine was £857. Additional graphics card was £124ish. The cpu+mobo+ram upgrades were £420ish, and I sold the old CPU+MOBO for £150.
    The macbook Pro's are a silly price, but they don't half do their job well!!

    Will be interested in your results when you try unplugging all your stuff later! Let us know how it goes...
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