Helix FRFR?

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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775

    ^ Me too - And fully agree with the perseverance tip.  My out front sound at little pub gigs now sounds like a pro mic'd up 4x12 rather than a typical pub band amp at the back of the room on far too loud scenario.  As a result not only I sound better but the whole band does too.

    As for 'what guitars are meant to be played through'  it's more a question of 'what guitars are meant to be listened to through'  most of my music at home gets listened to on a Hi-Fi or headphones (FRFR), and live through a big PA (FRFR).  When I listen to a guitar through an amp it's either me stood 2m in front of it or some bloke in a pub where the band have a crap PA, neither scenario is ideal for listening to guitar.

    Yes, a good amp sounds great in isolation, but to get your audience to share that experience you either have to give them each a guitar amp or amplify it via a PA so what they get is FRFR.  With a Helix (other modelling units are available) you have full control over the whole process, with  SM57 hanging over the front of a cab right next to the drummer you don't.

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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13929
    in the keep net they go...


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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    Dominic said:
    Vaiai said:
    As the Helix thread is huge and we are talking FRFR here - what is your best tip for getting rid of the unwanted frequencies and "digitalness" - I am using my Helix 4CM in an amp and 1x12 - so mainly for FX. 
    I am looking at the Alto TS210 as an option - I have had some killer recorded sounds with the Helix but how do you take that sound/patch and make it useable in FRFR?
    Tried the Alto ts210 set up -it was pretty awful..........very boomy and far too much thick bass
    Was it sitting on the ground? I heard that can be an issue.with boominess - and did you cut any frequencies? I think it takes time with these things and unless someone in the shop knows what they are doing you can be flying blind! 
    I am going to try the Alto but I'm reading up on as much as I can plus the guy in the shop uses a Helix with Yamahas so he's got some patches set for FRFR too - albeit different speakers.

    There's something about the definition and clarity you get in the band mix that I have had trouble with using a real amp tho! When I change to a modelled clean it's "present" for want of a better term.

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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    edited July 2017
    Vaiai said:
    Dominic said:
    Vaiai said:
    As the Helix thread is huge and we are talking FRFR here - what is your best tip for getting rid of the unwanted frequencies and "digitalness" - I am using my Helix 4CM in an amp and 1x12 - so mainly for FX. 
    I am looking at the Alto TS210 as an option - I have had some killer recorded sounds with the Helix but how do you take that sound/patch and make it useable in FRFR?
    Tried the Alto ts210 set up -it was pretty awful..........very boomy and far too much thick bass
    Was it sitting on the ground? I heard that can be an issue.with boominess - and did you cut any frequencies? I think it takes time with these things and unless someone in the shop knows what they are doing you can be flying blind! 
    I am going to try the Alto but I'm reading up on as much as I can plus the guy in the shop uses a Helix with Yamahas so he's got some patches set for FRFR too - albeit different speakers.

    There's something about the definition and clarity you get in the band mix that I have had trouble with using a real amp tho! When I change to a modelled clean it's "present" for want of a better term.


    The definition and clarity comes from the control you have over the frequencies so the guitar sound isn't encroaching on the bass or vocals too much.  With a 'proper' amp you get  lows and highs that might sound good in isolation, but stop it sitting in the mix.

    I've used the Alto, and the bass extension is a lot less than the Yamaha, the trick is to cut the bottom below about 120 Hz that way the cab isn't trying to amplify lots of lows that you don't want there anyway.

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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 2377
    You need the Altos on a pole - don't have them on the floor, as the resonant frequency makes it boom. I tend to kill all frequencies on mine below around 200Hz.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    FarleyUK said:
    You need the Altos on a pole - don't have them on the floor, as the resonant frequency makes it boom. I tend to kill all frequencies on mine below around 200Hz.

    Never used mine on a pole and it was fine
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413
    FarleyUK said:
    You need the Altos on a pole - don't have them on the floor, as the resonant frequency makes it boom. I tend to kill all frequencies on mine below around 200Hz.
    Don't know about the Altos, but we have some EV powered speakers that we use as monitors at our church.  There are different Eq presets depending on how you use them.  If you set it to floor then it does cut the low end.
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  • DominicDominic Frets: 16013
    I did have them on the floor .....could be why they sounded bad
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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 2377
    Dominic said:
    I did have them on the floor .....could be why they sounded bad
    When I use them on the floor (for home practice), I often cut as much as 280Hz. Great speakers, but can boom like a good'un.
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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    Ok, here's another question - in a pub gig with only vocals getting put thru PA - can you run the Helix in the Alto TS210 and just have it behind you as your amp/cab would be? Loud enough to gig?
    And in a venue where you DO go thru the PA and you use it as a monitor do you need separate outputs and do you stick an EQ block on the end of the output to PA so you can do rough and ready tweaks?

    I worry about getting a chance to hear my FoH sound as some venues we play in we are on after the place is packed and we just line check on stage and get monitors right - I'd literally have no idea how it sounds out front - even if it sounds awesome to me on stage that's no good to the sound guy or audience!


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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Vaiai said:
    Ok, here's another question - in a pub gig with only vocals getting put thru PA - can you run the Helix in the Alto TS210 and just have it behind you as your amp/cab would be? Loud enough to gig?
    And in a venue where you DO go thru the PA and you use it as a monitor do you need separate outputs and do you stick an EQ block on the end of the output to PA so you can do rough and ready tweaks?

    Yes, obviously depending on what sort of band you are. I've used one with a 5-piece rock band and it was OK in a smallish pub.  You could always just put a bit through the PA to re-enforce the sound if needed

    You can assign the global EQ to just the XKR's (OP to PA), I find though that if  I have the patch setup right most PA's just need everything flat on the desk it you just plug in and go.

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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    Ok, finally got a shot of the Alto TS210 in GuitarGuitar and was pleasantly surprised with how little I had to tweak the basic patches in the Helix - sounded like an amp, I have to say I was impressed! The panama was a but fizzy but a quick High/Low cut on the end of the chain fixed that. The Marshalls and Vox all sounded great and I could absolutely get some better sounds with some tweaking time.

    I didn't try the Yamaha DXR or QSC as I didn't want to find out that something 2x the price (or more in QSC)  was 2x better. That may sound silly but if I felt the Alto sounded good and could live with it now, I could justify the DXR or similar further down the line.

    I think I'll pick that up for now anyway and see how I go - quite excited at the prospect of having a nice compact rig! The Alto is smaller and lighter than expected! I tried it on the floor as a wedge monitor and then on a pole. Didn't feel it was boomy on the ground as I had heard they can be. Cranked it a fair bit too.

    As an aside - I played the James Valentine EBMM model - lovely guitar with that Axis like neck I love.
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  • FarleyUKFarleyUK Frets: 2377
    Vaiai said:
    Ok, finally got a shot of the Alto TS210 in GuitarGuitar and was pleasantly surprised with how little I had to tweak the basic patches in the Helix - sounded like an amp, I have to say I was impressed! The panama was a but fizzy but a quick High/Low cut on the end of the chain fixed that. The Marshalls and Vox all sounded great and I could absolutely get some better sounds with some tweaking time.

    I didn't try the Yamaha DXR or QSC as I didn't want to find out that something 2x the price (or more in QSC)  was 2x better. That may sound silly but if I felt the Alto sounded good and could live with it now, I could justify the DXR or similar further down the line.

    I think I'll pick that up for now anyway and see how I go - quite excited at the prospect of having a nice compact rig! The Alto is smaller and lighter than expected! I tried it on the floor as a wedge monitor and then on a pole. Didn't feel it was boomy on the ground as I had heard they can be. Cranked it a fair bit too.

    As an aside - I played the James Valentine EBMM model - lovely guitar with that Axis like neck I love.
    Yep, the Alto is great :) Traded in my QSC K10 for two of them, and to my ears, there's not much difference at all.
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
    FarleyUK said:
    Vaiai said:
    Ok, finally got a shot of the Alto TS210 in GuitarGuitar and was pleasantly surprised with how little I had to tweak the basic patches in the Helix - sounded like an amp, I have to say I was impressed! The panama was a but fizzy but a quick High/Low cut on the end of the chain fixed that. The Marshalls and Vox all sounded great and I could absolutely get some better sounds with some tweaking time.

    I didn't try the Yamaha DXR or QSC as I didn't want to find out that something 2x the price (or more in QSC)  was 2x better. That may sound silly but if I felt the Alto sounded good and could live with it now, I could justify the DXR or similar further down the line.

    I think I'll pick that up for now anyway and see how I go - quite excited at the prospect of having a nice compact rig! The Alto is smaller and lighter than expected! I tried it on the floor as a wedge monitor and then on a pole. Didn't feel it was boomy on the ground as I had heard they can be. Cranked it a fair bit too.

    As an aside - I played the James Valentine EBMM model - lovely guitar with that Axis like neck I love.
    Yep, the Alto is great :) Traded in my QSC K10 for two of them, and to my ears, there's not much difference at all.
    I can well believe that a pair of decent ones in stereo sound better than a single "better" one 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • equalsqlequalsql Frets: 6084
    I picked up an Alto TX10 the other day and have to say I'm pretty impressed. What I was hearing under the headphone was what I got through the speaker, warts and all.  Great value for money.
    (pronounced: equal-sequel)   "I suffered for my art.. now it's your turn"
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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 3021
    Here's my tip after having tried a CLR and DXR10: stop pissing about with this FRFR bollocks, it's just a PA speaker. Stick with a valve amp which is what guitars are meant to be played through, and loud. :-)

    This is bollocks.

    John_A said:

    ^ Me too - And fully agree with the perseverance tip.  My out front sound at little pub gigs now sounds like a pro mic'd up 4x12 rather than a typical pub band amp at the back of the room on far too loud scenario.  As a result not only I sound better but the whole band does too.

    As for 'what guitars are meant to be played through'  it's more a question of 'what guitars are meant to be listened to through'  most of my music at home gets listened to on a Hi-Fi or headphones (FRFR), and live through a big PA (FRFR).  When I listen to a guitar through an amp it's either me stood 2m in front of it or some bloke in a pub where the band have a crap PA, neither scenario is ideal for listening to guitar.

    Yes, a good amp sounds great in isolation, but to get your audience to share that experience you either have to give them each a guitar amp or amplify it via a PA so what they get is FRFR.  With a Helix (other modelling units are available) you have full control over the whole process, with  SM57 hanging over the front of a cab right next to the drummer you don't.


    This is sense.

    As John says, the Helix gives you a great mic'd up sound like you'd hear on a recording or through a PA.

    If you expect your Helix (or Kemper, or Axe FX) rig to sound like a real amp in the room then you will be disappointed.

    R.
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  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Frets: 13929
    Here's my tip after having tried a CLR and DXR10: stop pissing about with this FRFR bollocks, it's just a PA speaker. Stick with a valve amp which is what guitars are meant to be played through, and loud. :-)

    This is bollocks.

    John_A said:

    ^ Me too - And fully agree with the perseverance tip.  My out front sound at little pub gigs now sounds like a pro mic'd up 4x12 rather than a typical pub band amp at the back of the room on far too loud scenario.  As a result not only I sound better but the whole band does too.

    As for 'what guitars are meant to be played through'  it's more a question of 'what guitars are meant to be listened to through'  most of my music at home gets listened to on a Hi-Fi or headphones (FRFR), and live through a big PA (FRFR).  When I listen to a guitar through an amp it's either me stood 2m in front of it or some bloke in a pub where the band have a crap PA, neither scenario is ideal for listening to guitar.

    Yes, a good amp sounds great in isolation, but to get your audience to share that experience you either have to give them each a guitar amp or amplify it via a PA so what they get is FRFR.  With a Helix (other modelling units are available) you have full control over the whole process, with  SM57 hanging over the front of a cab right next to the drummer you don't.


    This is sense.

    As John says, the Helix gives you a great mic'd up sound like you'd hear on a recording or through a PA.

    If you expect your Helix (or Kemper, or Axe FX) rig to sound like a real amp in the room then you will be disappointed.

    R.
    Never Mind The Bollocks


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  • edbolivaredbolivar Frets: 153
    Just got the Friedman ASM 12 last night for the Helix.
    set it up in my office and it sounded and felt nice at midnight volume (kids asleep upstairs).
    Then finally got to turn it up this evening, which was a welcome relief after a day with the kids at chessington World of Pain...
    Really good tones and fun to play through, so might move it and the Helix to the music room next to the real Amps and cabs and give it a go.
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  • VaiaiVaiai Frets: 530
    Alto TS210 purchased today - also as it was display model, got it for £220 and free Alto dust cover :) Gig tonight but will try it tomorrow. 
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  • JonHoskerJonHosker Frets: 390
    Friedman looks good but bigger and more £ than DXR10...which one?
    I need bedroom levels as well as moderate gig ones...advice please 
    Jon
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