Q for the live sound gurus - vocal clarity?

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TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
I went to watch a friend's band at a local venue in the week - it's a pub that has a dedicated 'venue' out the back with permanent stage/PA/desk and I've heard some great sounds there in the past.

On this occasion I felt a little bad for my buddy as on some songs the clarity of the vocal was poor.

To my simplistic mind/ears it needed to be clearer in the upper mids, or something else needed to be pulled out to create that space.

There was a sound guy and I don't know the tech setup there so I certainly didn't make a nuisance of myself but it got me wondering what I'd have done faced with that. I *think* that all the bass, drums and the electric guitar was coming from the backline  with vocals and acoustic guitar in the PA.

I think I know what I'd have tried first, but I know some of you are much more experienced so interested in your thoughts (appreciate there are many possible variables - happy just to hear in principle what you might have tried - always learning and all that)

Tim 
Red ones are better. 
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Comments

  • John_PJohn_P Frets: 2744
    Plenty of people here that are better than me at live mixing but I'd agree with your initial thoughts and try to eq it up a little and carve out some space.  
    But if the band is coming all from the backline then it's possible that he has a quiet voice and /or the pa has run out of headroom before feedback.  There might be enough eq tools or repositioning of the speakers to help but maybe not if it's a permanent rig.   Sometimes it's even down to where your listening to the mix - same engineer every week? If so I expect him to know how to squeeze as much gain before feedback as possible.  
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    It is standard to cut keys/guitar/whatever to make a hole in the frequencies the voice sits in. If however the band think they are more important than the singer and are too loud in the back line the pa may indeed struggle to be clean and clear without feedback. Physics can be a birch sometimes. Boosting the upper mods might give more definition on most voices but will likely sey off feedback easily. 
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  • maltingsaudiomaltingsaudio Frets: 3097
    Without hearing the mix my guess would be simply the band were too loud for the vocals, it is amazing how much better a mix can sound if the band just reduce there back line volume by a squiz (technical term)
    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    What seemed odd is that I've heard much louder, much clearer in that venue. Singer's technique is fine
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 27568
    edited July 2017
    Was the sound tech running more effects than usual on the vocals?

    Odd with an installed system - I'd normally guess (from a non-music installation point of view - and my systems are mostly about speech intelligibility) at ropey EQ especially if it's extreme enough to affect phase. Your ears may well be insensitive to absolute phase, but they're not to relative phase in complex sounds.
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10356
    Sometimes the biggest difference comes from the singer. I don't mean in terms of how good they are or even mic technique but simple acoustic volume. There's one guy I work with who's natural projected volume is so loud there's little gain needed on the desk and you can get insane volume in his wedges without feedback. This also means the ratio of wanted signal versus spill from drums etc is excellent. In a situation like this you can generally use whatever EQ you want, you can compress the vocal and in general everything is easy

    Other singers I work with have fantastic voices, pitch perfect control but less natural volume, which means more gain is needed on the desk, there's more drum & guitar spill in the mic, you can't compress much if at all and you need to be careful about boosting anything above 1K. In a situation like this the best advice is @maltingsaudio turn the backline down

    Assuming though that everything is fine, the PA is good and the singer has enough acoustic volume in the mic to work with then a good starting point is to high pass around 100Hz, cut around 4dB between 250 and 500Hz using a low Q and boost a little around 3 to 5K using a low Q ............ That generally get's the vocal less flabby and more able to sit proud of the mix 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    edited July 2017
    TimmyO said:
    What seemed odd is that I've heard much louder, much clearer in that venue. Singer's technique is fine
    As @Danny1969  says, it can depend on the singers volume. It can also depend on the type of voice, and the frequencies it majors on, not just the main note but the harmonics and overtones. You've then got the problem of the guitar occupying the same parts of the spectrum. At different times I've played the same song, in the same key, with male and female singers, and used different guitars and/or chord inversions to leave them space.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • slackerslacker Frets: 2215
    Im not an experience sound engineer but I have done some gigs where the only solution was to ride the vocal mic all night. It's exhausting. However if the drummer is loud or the guitarist insists on using a stack and wont turn down, its difficult. 

    Some bands will work with the sound person some wont. Most engineers will try to get a good sound. Sometimes the 'house' ones dont bother espcially if the band wont listen. 

    IMHO your minimum stage volume is what the drummer will play at or bullied into playing at. Your maximum volume is the vocals not feeding back. Some bands will sidewash amps some will beam them at the audience. 

    THere are many factors. 


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