Ability over practise

What's Hot
maltingsaudiomaltingsaudio Frets: 3098
Just come in from a gig where this young upstart, actually only 15 years old and been playing (so he says) for four years does a slot and blows me away. Now after 40 years of playing ( did I admit to that?!)  I can play a bit but this kid was amazing, think tommy emmanuel on acid.

So the question for discussion is can you ever get better than your supposed to be ?

PS a quick once over with a club hammer and this kids fingers made me fell much better! 
www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
«1

Comments

  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    Not me I'm afraid - I've practised many many many more hours than my ability would suggest!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26458
    I think there probably is a plateau beyond which it's incredibly difficult to progress; it's obviously different for everybody, but there's the odd musician here who doesn't seem to have that limit and just keeps getting further and further beyond what even seems possible.

    I'm thinking in terms of Jon Gomm, Mike Dawes, Steve Vai, Guthrie Govan and the like.

    When they're that young, though, I hear you - it's fucking annoying :D
    <space for hire>
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • Actually respect where its due watch this and weep https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=459zbzLkZEs

    www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    In UFC they have an adage "Hard work beats talent when talent won't work hard"

    I think there is a lot of truth in that. I'm certainly as good on the guitar as I deserve to be and no better. 
    If I'd put the hours in I suspect I would probably be at the same level as some of the more adept members on here. 

    At the very highest level I expect physical factors come into play. However many hours I practiced running I would never beat Bolt and the I suspect the same would be true of trying to outshred Vai.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614

    my mate played at the same place it looks like ...hes playing backstage with Tommy Emanuel..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsJoCaari38

    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26458
    At the very highest level I expect physical factors come into play. However many hours I practiced running I would never beat Bolt and the I suspect the same would be true of trying to outshred Vai.
    Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say :)

    Personally, I think I've managed to get to my limit in terms of raw speed on the guitar (and, honestly, it's not particularly high compared to a lot of players I've come across lately), and I don't think any amount of practice will get me any further. I think that means I'm going to actually have to learn to be a musician now :D
    <space for hire>
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614

    So the question for discussion is can you ever get better than your supposed to be ?
    i think its more of how determined a person is ....for some people there is no limit..they just carry on regardless, its frightening when you hear some of these kids now that have only been playing a couple of years...i think when your younger as well things sink in better ...and i honestly think most people have there style sorted before they are 20...then after that there is just minor improvements....then we start going backwards as we get older   :)
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    but with more feel :) that's my story anyway & I'm sticking to it.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    viz said:
    but with more feel :) that's my story anyway & I'm sticking to it.
    haha....thats is ...we mature as players..   :)
    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • tonyrathtonyrath Frets: 51

    The point about practicing is that as an adult you have a life, family job etc.  A younger person with no distractions can put in more hours and develop better. Most of the really good players start when they are kids and keep it going throughout the rest of their life. At the age of 68 I still have certain goals to achieve before the fingers and the brain go off . 
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • mike_lmike_l Frets: 5700
    viz said:
    Not me I'm afraid - I've practised many many many more hours than my ability would suggest!

    Having heard you play I'm sure you practice at least 25 hrs a day

    Ringleader of the Cambridge cartel, pedal champ and king of the dirt boxes (down to 21) 

    1reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    It isn't how much you practice- it is WHAT you practice when you do.
    2 hours a day is all you need to get to a professional level of playing within 4 years (roughly).
    The reason some people never get there is they are simply practicing in the wrong way.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 2reaction image Wisdom
  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    A study of virtuosity (linked at the other place by Ade Clark - so that dates it ;^) said it takes 10,000 hours to master any instrument.

    The study also showed that those with a natural aptitude were more inclined to give it up and not put in the hours.

    From 16-24 I practised around 8 hours a day (unfocussed) I loved playing - it was my greatest joy. It doesn't show now - skill is a thing that must be maintained and upheld - use it or lose it.

    Aged 41 I played for about 20 minutes last night for the first time in months - I loved it. Best thing I've done for myself for ages.
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    frankus said:
    A study of virtuosity (linked at the other place by Ade Clark - so that dates it ;^) said it takes 10,000 hours to master any instrument.

    Mastery is one thing- but many professional guitarists aren't 'masters' of their instrument.
    Often they are just good at being themselves.

    Taker Steven Wilson as an example.
    Not the most technically brilliant guitarist but a very good writer and can knock out a solo that has theme, development and dynamic contour.
    Sure, he isn't at Guthrie's level- but he's still pretty good.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • ourmaninthenorthourmaninthenorth Frets: 3418
    edited August 2013


    So the question for discussion is can you ever get better than your supposed to be ?


    Depends on how you measure how good we're supposed to be.

    I'm glad I've not had to make a living out of it that's for sure. But it certainly has made the living easier on a million and one levels. 

    One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that I'm the best guitar player in my house. 

    b-(
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    octatonic said:
    It isn't how much you practice- it is WHAT you practice when you do.
    2 hours a day is all you need to get to a professional level of playing within 4 years (roughly).
    The reason some people never get there is they are simply practicing in the wrong way.

    Have a Wisdom for this. 
    I play quite a bit, but mostly I noodle around and play things I know I can play. The only thing this does really is preserve the strength in my hands. 
    If I try something totally out of my comfort zone (which I seldom do) it is noticeably more taxing, but has far more impact on my ability.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited August 2013
    frankus said: It doesn't show now - skill is a thing that must be maintained and upheld - use it or lose it. 
    This is exactly why I don't worry these days.  You can't bank practice, so unless you're practicing for an event - a performance or a recording, then it doesn't matter if you can't practice every day.  If your schedule won't let you practice every day anyway then you have to accept it and not beat yourself up about it.

    I still love to play, but I don't worry about regular strict practicing unless it is building towards something that matters.  Keeping my chops up 24/7/365 is more stress than it is worth at this time.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • octatonic said:
    It isn't how much you practice- it is WHAT you practice when you do.
    2 hours a day is all you need to get to a professional level of playing within 4 years (roughly).
    The reason some people never get there is they are simply practicing in the wrong way.


    This is very true. 

    The biggest issue that limits what most people can ultimately achieve technique wise is poor foundations.  This is especially true of those who are self taught or who have never sought out a really good teacher.  People practice too fast and with no tempo structure and assume if they can do something then they must be doing it right.

     

    The amount of players I see with completely poor posture, awkward hand positioning and really misguided basic techniques is staggering.  This, as with any discipline, will not limit you from becoming good at it but eventually you will hit a plateau where poor foundations limit what you can achieve with your playing.  As musicians guitarist especially seem obsessed with playing this solo of that riff.  Guitar teachers seem to cater for this thing short term show-off pieces will make it seems as if their tuition is making good progress.

    As a really simple example I have had so many students who come along and can play reasonable complex stuff despite the fact that they only pick in one direction.  To them they fact that they can play this cool solo means that picking in one direction is not hindering them and they are reluctant to change.  That's fine but it's not an over challenging sum to realise that they are doing twice the work of someone picking more economically in both directions. 

    Around 16 years ago I was one of the first group of guitarist to go through the guitar institute's degree program.  I was by far one of the youngest on the course and there were guys who had been gigging for longer than I had been alive and I was in awe of them.  The first step the tutors took - who at the time were Shaun Baxter, Dave Kilminster, Iain Scott, Max Milligan and Barry Langdon was that most of what you have already learned and can do is probably fundamentally flawed.  Being young and wide eyed I was eager to learn and open to any concepts these 'wise men' had to impart on me.  The older guys who had had their way of playing for years were understandably more reluctant to go back to being taught like a beginner.  Shaun Baxter in particular was incredibly strict about hand positioning and technique and not shy about pointing out even the smallest flaws in a constructive manner.  Every exercise was practiced at 80bpm to get the foundation right, then slowly increase the speed.  I've always compared it to Tai Chi.  Over four intensive years those who listening accelerated ahead and those who took the "pfft" attitude fell away and dropped out as piece became more and more advanced.

    After I left I was offered the chance to go to Berklee in California and see how things are done.  In the states they seem to rush their kids less when learning and basics such as scales and exercise seem to be the criteria by which student progression is judged.  Although Berklee's teaching is more theory and composition based, the strong fundamental exercises and understanding students had developed meant they tended to pick up new pieces far quicker and with less limits.

    I think we all have a limit and someone like Vai (who was brought through Berklee's system) is undoubtedly the product of precise and focused practice coupled with a large helping of extreme natural flair.  That said, the foundation techniques of our playing will ultimately limit us.

    It's boring and it's not cool but if you take a comparison to someone like Usain Bolt, there is no doubt he has slowly practiced his release from the starting blocks for years and years under the scrutiny of his coaches to ensure that a simple flaw in his technique isn't hindering the employment of his natural talent.

     

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 1reaction image Wisdom
  • jaygtrjaygtr Frets: 218
    randomhandclaps;14928" said:
    octatonic said:

    It isn't how much you practice- it is WHAT you practice when you do.2 hours a day is all you need to get to a professional level of playing within 4 years (roughly).The reason some people never get there is they are simply practicing in the wrong way.







    This is very true.  The biggest issue that limits what most people can ultimately achieve technique wise is poor foundations.  This is especially true of those who are self taught or who have never sought out a really good teacher.  People practice too fast and with no tempo structure and assume if they can do something then they must be doing it right. The amount of players I see with completely poor posture, awkward hand positioning and really misguided basic techniques is staggering.  This, as with any discipline, will not limit you from becoming good at it but eventually you will hit a plateau where poor foundations limit what you can achieve with your playing.  As musicians guitarist especially seem obsessed with playing this solo of that riff.  Guitar teachers seem to cater for this thing short term show-off pieces will make it seems as if their tuition is making good progress.As a really simple example I have had so many students who come along and can play reasonable complex stuff despite the fact that they only pick in one direction.  To them they fact that they can play this cool solo means that picking in one direction is not hindering them and they are reluctant to change.  That's fine but it's not an over challenging sum to realise that they are doing twice the work of someone picking more economically in both directions. Around 16 years ago I was one of the first group of guitarist to go through the guitar institute's degree program.  I was by far one of the youngest on the course and there were guys who had been gigging for longer than I had been alive and I was in awe of them.  The first step the tutors took - who at the time were Shaun Baxter, Dave Kilminster, Iain Scott, Max Milligan and Barry Langdon was that most of what you have already learned and can do is probably fundamentally flawed.  Being young and wide eyed I was eager to learn and open to any concepts these 'wise men' had to impart on me.  The older guys who had had their way of playing for years were understandably more reluctant to go back to being taught like a beginner.  Shaun Baxter in particular was incredibly strict about hand positioning and technique and not shy about pointing out even the smallest flaws in a constructive manner.  Every exercise was practiced at 80bpm to get the foundation right, then slowly increase the speed.  I've always compared it to Tai Chi.  Over four intensive years those who listening accelerated ahead and those who took the "pfft" attitude fell away and dropped out as piece became more and more advanced.After I left I was offered the chance to go to Berklee in California and see how things are done.  In the states they seem to rush their kids less when learning and basics such as scales and exercise seem to be the criteria by which student progression is judged.  Although Berklee's teaching is more theory and composition based, the strong fundamental exercises and understanding students had developed meant they tended to pick up new pieces far quicker and with less limits.I think we all have a limit and someone like Vai (who was brought through Berklee's system) is undoubtedly the product of precise and focused practice coupled with a large helping of extreme natural flair.  That said, the foundation techniques of our playing will ultimately limit us.It's boring and it's not cool but if you take a comparison to someone like Usain Bolt, there is no doubt he has slowly practiced his release from the starting blocks for years and years under the scrutiny of his coaches to ensure that a simple flaw in his technique isn't hindering the employment of his natural talent. 

    This sums me up perfectly. I just know I would be better if my fingers didn't fly so far from the fretboard, I know how to put it right , it just a question of spending some time trying to unlearn 25 years of doing it wrong. There are other issues , but one at a time

    :((
    0reaction image LOL 0reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
  • douglashdgdouglashdg Frets: 2
    edited August 2013
     Hi all thanks for your comments reference young Darren Hodge. just to introduce myself i am his Father Douglas Hodge and unfortunately can't play a musical instrument to save my life :) 
    just to set a few points straight Darren is Now 17 and has been playing for five years now and has never had a lesson.

    I bought Darren his first guitar for his 12th birthday and let me tell you after six weeks of constant guitar music etc i said to him can you please turn it off son a cannot take any more lol. To which he promptly replied what do you mean i haven't got it on and i rplied what is that noise then he said its me and i replied dont be so stupid " He was playing classical Gas after six weeks"

    I soon realised that i had something very special on my hands and from that moment on i have encouraged and nurtured Darren to the best of my ability to become the player you see today and i would just like to say i am very very proud of what he has achieved in such a short time and i know that this is only the Beginning of what i hope for him is an amazing journey ahead. i have to point out that he is only getting better with every performance so where he will be in 5 years time is anyone's guess.

    One final note over the past few years it has been a pleasure to meet some of the most wonderful musicians that populate this earth young and old they are all amazing just for the fact they get up and do it.
    but one question kept popping up "why did such a young man decide on that style and master it so quickly, and truthfully i did not have an answer, that was until we met up with Mr Tommy Emmanuel whom i might add is one of the finest human beings i have ever met nothing is to much trouble to this man and i will be forever grateful for the encouragement he gave Darren said " Darren didn't pick this style it picked him" answered !!!

    Cheers all
    Douglas

    0reaction image LOL 2reaction image Wow! 0reaction image Wisdom
Sign In or Register to comment.