Planning Fx Banks. (Multi and Switchers)

professorben

I have a quandary. 

Using my loop switcher and pedals I have a vast array of cool and interesting sounds to divert the listeners ear from my actual note choices, however I'm now caught as to how to plan out these sounds....

For example: first song 
Intro riff = Octave High Gain
Verse = High gain with chorus 
Chorus = High gain with phaser
Bridge = Clean with Verb and Delay

so far so good, but next song has loads of different fx and gain combinations.

Ive set it up so far on my loop switcher thusly
1-5 clean/ambient clean/crunch/heavy/lead same in every bank

6-10 specific fx and gain for each section of song. Intro/verse/chorus/bridge/outro

A Bank per song giving 10 songs (we only have 2 so far, early days etc)

But as above it means I'm only using 4 sounds meaning 6 presets going unused im the first bank. 

Im switching some fx via midi some via loops, amp via relay. 

Should just carry on like this as it means a fair continuity between songs the same buttons for the same sections of each song or is there a better way??

@Drew_tnbd and @Clarky I know you guys use a lot of presets etc. 

Clarky

I actually don't use many presets... only 5..
that said, each preset has 5 scenes..

my scene layout is always the same

riff1 / solo1 / clean / solo2 / riff2


all of my presets are copies of the same basic preset..

here's the plan...

I create a preset that will get me through most of the songs in the set..

there will be a few songs that have slightly different needs..
for each of these I make a copy of the basic preset and build in the modifications..


in practice I've found that the main preset handles all but 4 songs..
the next preset handles 2 songs [cos they have the same needs]
the other two songs have a copy of the basic preset each with their own unique modifications

think about:
- what do your songs need and try to group them
- what do you need to do control wise so that the gig you have with your feet is a simple as it can possibly be..
I'll build a more complex preset if it means things are easier from a live performance standpoint..

John_A

Pretty much what I do too, I have one main pre-set with 4 snapshots (in Helix terminology) clean, crunch, dirt and solo, with a few FX I can switch in an out on separate buttons and an always on delay with tap tempo that I control the level on using the expression pedal  That covers 98% of the set, the other 2% is covered by dedicated pre-sets for each song.

digitalscream

I always set it up in banks of 5 patches, specifically designed so that I don't have to change banks in the middle of a song. The structure of each bank is identical:

1 - Chunky rhythm
2 - Chunky rhythm with some sort of effect
3 - Clean with atmospherics (reverb or delay, or both)
4 - One of loud rhythm, loud rhythm with delay or lead with an effect
5 - Standard lead (loads of gain, touch of analogue delay)

Generally, 2/3/4 are the ones that change between banks, most often just 2 and 4. When I last used this setup, it was with the Eleven Rack and I had an "alternate" button on each patch which would allow me to shrink the number of patches at the cost of a bit more tap-dancing, but also allow more flexibility by doubling up each patch's duties.

This way, I can be in any bank and automatically know which patch does what without having to think about what I need to hit relative to the song I'm in - ie "solo time" = #5, or "clean section" = #3.

Roland

Similar here. I have five patches. The remaining switches turn individual effects on and off, or change their x/y states e.g. Changing small room reverb to something bigger.

I've avoided one patch per song because, as a covers band, we've got far too many songs in the repertoire. I've avoided Scenes/Snapshots for the same reason, plus I sometimes use a different patch or effects depending on the sound on the night.

professorben

digitalscream said:

I always set it up in banks of 5 patches, specifically designed so that I don't have to change banks in the middle of a song. The structure of each bank is identical:

1 - Chunky rhythm
2 - Chunky rhythm with some sort of effect
3 - Clean with atmospherics (reverb or delay, or both)
4 - One of loud rhythm, loud rhythm with delay or lead with an effect
5 - Standard lead (loads of gain, touch of analogue delay)

Generally, 2/3/4 are the ones that change between banks, most often just 2 and 4. When I last used this setup, it was with the Eleven Rack and I had an "alternate" button on each patch which would allow me to shrink the number of patches at the cost of a bit more tap-dancing, but also allow more flexibility by doubling up each patch's duties.

This way, I can be in any bank and automatically know which patch does what without having to think about what I need to hit relative to the song I'm in - ie "solo time" = #5, or "clean section" = #3.

Yeah this is the approach I'm using, I've got ten buttons.
1-5 generic tones pretty much as described above, 6-10 song specific presets arranged as:
6-intro
7- verse
8-chorus etc

so for example in bank 1 preset 6 is a high gain with octaver, but in bank 2 it's a huge reverb, because that's what I use for intros on each of those songs, for any song section where I'm not using FX, it's just patches 1-5 on any bank.

It just means on Bank 2 for example, I use Presets 3,6,7 meaning 70% of that banks switches are unused......

is there a more efficient way to do this, whilst maintains 'heat of the moment' continuity?

sgosden

how many of the 1-5 do you see yourself using in every song?

If your band is fairly heavy its probably more likely you'll be using crunch & heavy settings for the majority of songs? maybe a lead too.

Call it 3 presets that get used a lot. use them as your basics, they you have 7 spaces for your bespoke settings. and can have 2 songs per bank?

I always find I play around with settings on different playthroughs anyway ie where a song is written with crunch & flange on a verse, I'll swap around a phaser or chorus etc. its nice to have more options infront of you, rather than trying to replicate an exact sound every time. Afterall most the people who ae hearing it don't have a clue how its 'meant' to sound, right?

professorben

sgosden said:

how many of the 1-5 do you see yourself using in every song?

If your band is fairly heavy its probably more likely you'll be using crunch & heavy settings for the majority of songs? maybe a lead too.

Call it 3 presets that get used a lot. use them as your basics, they you have 7 spaces for your bespoke settings. and can have 2 songs per bank?

I always find I play around with settings on different playthroughs anyway ie where a song is written with crunch & flange on a verse, I'll swap around a phaser or chorus etc. its nice to have more options infront of you, rather than trying to replicate an exact sound every time. Afterall most the people who ae hearing it don't have a clue how its 'meant' to sound, right?

Yeah not a bad shout, I'm thinking about setting up a 'General' bank with:
1 Clean
2 Crunch
3 Heavy
4 Lead

Then 5-10 as  generic FX only buttons that add to whatever sound I've got selected. 

5 Octave
6 Chorus
7 Flanger
8 Phaser
9 Delay
10 Delay and Reverb

Then have a remaining 9 banks for specific songs, if I have to get to a bunch of presets with minimal taps

Thinking about it, most of the time I'm on 3- Heavy Rhythm anyway, so it's just a case of adding an effect to that

Also I can set up a exp pedal to control other stuff, fx mix, or blend a Reverb and Delay into a bone dry Chorused tone for example. 

So first song in the set needs Bank 1
Second song requires a different Harmoniser, a Bit Crusher, so I can use 2 buttons from Bank 2

Might make more sense than trying to load new Set lists from my IPad to multi fx during a show if we play more than 10 songs...

Am I making this waaaaay too complicated?!

professorben

Clarky said:

I actually don't use many presets... only 5..
that said, each preset has 5 scenes..

my scene layout is always the same

riff1 / solo1 / clean / solo2 / riff2


all of my presets are copies of the same basic preset..

here's the plan...

I create a preset that will get me through most of the songs in the set..

there will be a few songs that have slightly different needs..
for each of these I make a copy of the basic preset and build in the modifications..


in practice I've found that the main preset handles all but 4 songs..
the next preset handles 2 songs [cos they have the same needs]
the other two songs have a copy of the basic preset each with their own unique modifications

think about:
- what do your songs need and try to group them
- what do you need to do control wise so that the gig you have with your feet is a simple as it can possibly be..
I'll build a more complex preset if it means things are easier from a live performance standpoint..

Thanks for the insight, how do 'scenes' work? I'm guessing it's an AxeFx thing?

professorben

John_A said:

Pretty much what I do too, I have one main pre-set with 4 snapshots (in Helix terminology) clean, crunch, dirt and solo, with a few FX I can switch in an out on separate buttons and an always on delay with tap tempo that I control the level on using the expression pedal  That covers 98% of the set, the other 2% is covered by dedicated pre-sets for each song.

Right I'm coming over to this way of thinking, but your dedicated presets for specific songs..... how do you arrange those?

NelsonP

professorben said:

sgosden said:

how many of the 1-5 do you see yourself using in every song?

If your band is fairly heavy its probably more likely you'll be using crunch & heavy settings for the majority of songs? maybe a lead too.

Call it 3 presets that get used a lot. use them as your basics, they you have 7 spaces for your bespoke settings. and can have 2 songs per bank?

I always find I play around with settings on different playthroughs anyway ie where a song is written with crunch & flange on a verse, I'll swap around a phaser or chorus etc. its nice to have more options infront of you, rather than trying to replicate an exact sound every time. Afterall most the people who ae hearing it don't have a clue how its 'meant' to sound, right?

Yeah not a bad shout, I'm thinking about setting up a 'General' bank with:
1 Clean
2 Crunch
3 Heavy
4 Lead

Then 5-10 as  generic FX only buttons that add to whatever sound I've got selected. 

5 Octave
6 Chorus
7 Flanger
8 Phaser
9 Delay
10 Delay and Reverb

Then have a remaining 9 banks for specific songs, if I have to get to a bunch of presets with minimal taps

Thinking about it, most of the time I'm on 3- Heavy Rhythm anyway, so it's just a case of adding an effect to that

Also I can set up a exp pedal to control other stuff, fx mix, or blend a Reverb and Delay into a bone dry Chorused tone for example. 

So first song in the set needs Bank 1
Second song requires a different Harmoniser, a Bit Crusher, so I can use 2 buttons from Bank 2

Might make more sense than trying to load new Set lists from my IPad to multi fx during a show if we play more than 10 songs...

Am I making this waaaaay too complicated?!

This is pretty much how I do it, using a modeller

My main issue is getting clean and dirty tones that are well matched - e.g. switching from a deluxe to a marshall model never seems to work very well

professorben

NelsonP said:

professorben said:

sgosden said:

how many of the 1-5 do you see yourself using in every song?

If your band is fairly heavy its probably more likely you'll be using crunch & heavy settings for the majority of songs? maybe a lead too.

Call it 3 presets that get used a lot. use them as your basics, they you have 7 spaces for your bespoke settings. and can have 2 songs per bank?

I always find I play around with settings on different playthroughs anyway ie where a song is written with crunch & flange on a verse, I'll swap around a phaser or chorus etc. its nice to have more options infront of you, rather than trying to replicate an exact sound every time. Afterall most the people who ae hearing it don't have a clue how its 'meant' to sound, right?

Yeah not a bad shout, I'm thinking about setting up a 'General' bank with:
1 Clean
2 Crunch
3 Heavy
4 Lead

Then 5-10 as  generic FX only buttons that add to whatever sound I've got selected. 

5 Octave
6 Chorus
7 Flanger
8 Phaser
9 Delay
10 Delay and Reverb

Then have a remaining 9 banks for specific songs, if I have to get to a bunch of presets with minimal taps

Thinking about it, most of the time I'm on 3- Heavy Rhythm anyway, so it's just a case of adding an effect to that

Also I can set up a exp pedal to control other stuff, fx mix, or blend a Reverb and Delay into a bone dry Chorused tone for example. 

So first song in the set needs Bank 1
Second song requires a different Harmoniser, a Bit Crusher, so I can use 2 buttons from Bank 2

Might make more sense than trying to load new Set lists from my IPad to multi fx during a show if we play more than 10 songs...

Am I making this waaaaay too complicated?!

This is pretty much how I do it, using a modeller

My main issue is getting clean and dirty tones that are well matched - e.g. switching from a deluxe to a marshall model never seems to work very well

That's the issue I always found, I used to just swap the Preamp types but keep the same cab and mic model, that seemed to even out the differences a bit but still get the change of character. 

John_A

professorben said:

John_A said:

Pretty much what I do too, I have one main pre-set with 4 snapshots (in Helix terminology) clean, crunch, dirt and solo, with a few FX I can switch in an out on separate buttons and an always on delay with tap tempo that I control the level on using the expression pedal  That covers 98% of the set, the other 2% is covered by dedicated pre-sets for each song.

Right I'm coming over to this way of thinking, but your dedicated presets for specific songs..... how do you arrange those?

Depends on the song, no real set pattern.  For some I may use verse, chorus, middle etc, for others it may just be a totally different set-up.  It does sound like you are over-complicating things, or maybe I'm over simplifying things, guess that depends on  the style of music, if I played in the Porcupine Tree, it may be different, but for years I played everything with a three channel amp a boost and a delay so my needs are pretty basic compared to some

sgosden

are all your far out FX coming from a H9? (vaguely remember you saying you had one) and is the expression pedal just connected to this?

you could have your core sounds along the bottom row, with your top row triggering presets on h9, and xpression pedal bringing mix from 0% upto whatever you have it set to as normal?

I'm basing this idea on how I have helix setup, not sure how possible itll be. 

Cirrus

Apologies for the slightly autobiographical nature of this post.   Back in 2010 or thereabouts, I got a big 12 unit rack setup which my bandmates quickly came to affectionately call "The Maiden" rather than "The Rack", thereby referencing two medieval torture devices as whoever had to help me carry it up the stairs thought of it as torture. The Bastards. 

Anyway, I used it with first a VL Ground Control then a Rocktron All Access, and I spent quite a lot of time thinking about how to actually use it and lay out the sounds. It seems to me that it's very much a workflow thing that comes down to whatever makes most sense to you for your music. It needs to become second nature on stage and make enough sense that you're not taken out of the performance thinking about or searching for a patch.

First thing I tried was basically just laying out the ground control with two songs per bank - so, the first 4-5 switches would be the first song, the second row would be the second. And my printed setlist would tell me which bank and patch range to go to as a prompt. I just made sure that a song never split between two banks, even if that left some empty patches within a bank.

I didn't like that, because it meant having to fish around between songs for the bank the next song was on. Seems a minor thing but going from bank 1 to bank 17 between the first two songs was a pain, as was the alternative - endlessly moving the patches round to put them in the order of the next gig's setlist. It felt constraining, and when we were working on new material I kept having to stop the flow of the session while I created new patches.

The next thing I tried was, rather than song-specific patches, just having a single bank with the 10 sounds I most commonly use, with a tap tempo to sync delays manually per song. That made *Much* more sense to me because it meant much less mental effort managing the setup live - I always knew if I wanted a heavy distortion patch 4 would be the ticket, no matter what the song. And I put the non-standard sounds like the delay preset that was totally fucked up or the uber-flange on the second bank, so I could flick over to that as and when then back to bank 1 for business as usual. That made much more sense for the way I think of guitar tones in the context of my live band.

Then it gets a bit comical, because that *still* wasn't quite spontaneous enough for me. The next thing I knew, I'd set up my All Access so each button turned a specific effect pedal or rack unit on and off - so basically, no presets, just using the board to control individual effects, tap dancing as if it were a standard pedalboard. The moral of the story was this: I'm retarded and that's the way I like to work, so 6 months later I'd sold an entire 12-unit rack of stuff and had a little piece of wood with individual stomp boxes again.

professorben

sgosden said:

are all your far out FX coming from a H9? (vaguely remember you saying you had one) and is the expression pedal just connected to this?

you could have your core sounds along the bottom row, with your top row triggering presets on h9, and xpression pedal bringing mix from 0% upto whatever you have it set to as normal?

I'm basing this idea on how I have helix setup, not sure how possible itll be. 

Yep I have a Wah, Boost, Flanger and an H9. 

Roland

professorben said:

Yeah not a bad shout, I'm thinking about setting up a 'General' bank with:
1 Clean
2 Crunch
3 Heavy
4 Lead

Then 5-10 as  generic FX only buttons that add to whatever sound I've got selected. 

5 Octave
6 Chorus
7 Flanger
8 Phaser
9 Delay
10 Delay and Reverb

Then have a remaining 9 banks for specific songs, if I have to get to a bunch of presets with minimal taps

Thinking about it, most of the time I'm on 3- Heavy Rhythm anyway, so it's just a case of adding an effect to that

Also I can set up a exp pedal to control other stuff, fx mix, or blend a Reverb and Delay into a bone dry Chorused tone for example. 

So first song in the set needs Bank 1
Second song requires a different Harmoniser, a Bit Crusher, so I can use 2 buttons from Bank 2

Might make more sense than trying to load new Set lists from my IPad to multi fx during a show if we play more than 10 songs...

Am I making this waaaaay too complicated?!

Probably. I have dabbled with triggering patches from the set list on my iPad, but sometimes I want to look ahead without changing patch, so I've kept it simple.  What I do have on the set list is a reminder of which patch and additional effects the song needs.

As @Cirrus says, It's also useful if you can stay within one bank at a gig. To do this I've worked at running no more than five patches:
1. Ultra clean
2. Clean
3. Crunch
4. Ovedrive
5. Acoustic simulation

and using pedals to change things within a patch:
Solo, which changes to a different setting on the same amp.
Swap to different amp type.
Reverb setting: Small Room to Large Room with increased levels

Effects are also footswitched: Drive, Tremolo, Chorus, Flanger, Rotary, and Mid boost.

professorben

Right, thanks all for your great suggestions. 

Im going to set up my patches with 
4 basic tones, and the remaining 6 as fx controls. 

Copy this across all banks, and adjust any fx to suit a song. 

Prob most times I'll get away with just using bank 1 

Clarky

professorben said:

Clarky said:

I actually don't use many presets... only 5..
that said, each preset has 5 scenes..

my scene layout is always the same

riff1 / solo1 / clean / solo2 / riff2


all of my presets are copies of the same basic preset..

here's the plan...

I create a preset that will get me through most of the songs in the set..

there will be a few songs that have slightly different needs..
for each of these I make a copy of the basic preset and build in the modifications..


in practice I've found that the main preset handles all but 4 songs..
the next preset handles 2 songs [cos they have the same needs]
the other two songs have a copy of the basic preset each with their own unique modifications

think about:
- what do your songs need and try to group them
- what do you need to do control wise so that the gig you have with your feet is a simple as it can possibly be..
I'll build a more complex preset if it means things are easier from a live performance standpoint..

Thanks for the insight, how do 'scenes' work? I'm guessing it's an AxeFx thing?

in the Axe-FX a preset can have up to 8 scenes
a scene is a snapshot of the on / off state of any block in the preset
given that the Axe-FX has a 12 x 4 grid rather than a chain,
plus the bypass state of an individual block can be thru [effect of but does not block the signal] or mute [block the effect is off and the path blocked], this means that you can switch in / out all all kinds of routing..
highly flexible stuff..
in each of my presets I have 5 scenes
add in the morphing I do and I have up to 10 distinct tones within a single preset