Finger Independence - The Holy Grail for Guitarists

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Old_SwannerOld_Swanner Frets: 24
edited October 2017 in Technique
Another undercovered subject on guitar.  Here's a video I made offering my take on the subject. of spider exercises to improve finger independence  It's the first in a planned series on this vital area, with accompanying blog posts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fglGCP2X318&t=4s

As ever, discussion and healthy debate is eagerly anticipated.
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  • mellowsunmellowsun Frets: 2422
    Fretting or picking hand? 

    The holy grail for me is right hand finger independence as I am learning Latin and flamenco styles
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  • This video is only looking at left hand finger independence, but I'd use the same approach to deal with right hand issues.  That means measuring top speed on relevant patterns, working to make those top speeds improve and of course, monitoring results closely!
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  • Old_SwannerOld_Swanner Frets: 24
    edited October 2017
    2nd video with companion blog post in this series, including wide reaching and often overlooked concepts applicable to many, if not most other situations.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx4-vqvH4XU


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  • no offence, but in 9 years of trying I've never ever found any finger independence exercises any good at all.In my research, not all people have the same tendons connecting their fingers, which surprised me greatly!
    my third finger on the fretting hand is useless for anything but chords,I cannot play any scales with it in the traditional fingering of one finger per fret,without it seizing up.It has never been damaged either! After 9 years of practice and exercises I just use the gary moore method of fingers 124 for pentatonic scales.It was either that, or give up guitar permanently
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  • no offence, but in 9 years of trying I've never ever found any finger independence exercises any good at all.In my research, not all people have the same tendons connecting their fingers, which surprised me greatly!
    I agree that there is no magic pattern that can guarantee to improve your finger independence by its mere repetition.  Many patterns are however ideal gauges of improvement in finger independence.  I tend to lean toward focusing on the more awkward ones such as the chromatic octaves in my 2nd video above.

    I certainly believe improvement in finger independence is available to all, but it's definitely a tough challenge, and often approached incorrectly.  That's my opinion after 32 years of struggle with a very naturally untalented left hand.

    3rd episode in this series is on the way before too long .. been a bit sidetracked recently,  In it I'll showcase the "Double Chromatic", a deceptively tricky pattern I devised in 2010 to highlight  these and related concepts.  
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  • Old_SwannerOld_Swanner Frets: 24
    edited September 2017
     not all people have the same tendons connecting their fingers, which surprised me greatly!
     BTW you're the first other guitarist that I've  ever seen mention that.  I came across that little pearl back in 2007 when I really began getting into this subject.  It was mentioned in a forum discussing the art of "pen spinning".  Apparently there are certain tricks which can only be done by people missing a particular tendon in their hand.  My take was to wonder what a less "talented" person could do to their hand to move in the direction of the gifted, which relates exactly the same to guitar!

    Page 17 in the book linked below has a bit on this, online preview available ...

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C_4HzrmKGaw...+longus+guitar&source=bl&ots=oXhIib91z0&sig=H68qjzizXsI9dMLK-oIBRVz27pY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivn57f5-DUAhVqIcAKHaqzD4MQ6AEIogEwFw#v=onepage&q=Palmaris%20longus%20guitar&f=false

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  • kinkin Frets: 1015
    I've done a lot of work on finger independence and have now got to the stage of complete independence, in fact quite often my fingers are playing a completely different tune to the one my brain is telling them to.
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  • it's an interesting article,I've read many similar articles.I don't know whether the problem lies within the brain or the hand itself.I do know my guitar days are numbered.The writings on the wall.It's sad because I never actually achieved the ability to play without fighting my hands.
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  • relic_strayrelic_stray Frets: 5
    edited September 2017
    For some reason it posted a duplicate post, god knows why.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2017
    A finger independence exercise I developed, which I now practise every day even when I am without my guitar, is based on Vai's 10-hour workout but goes a few steps further. 

    You cycle through a number of sequences, one finger per fret. There are six. Play each one a few thousand times. Get it to machine gun speed. Thus:

    1234, 2341, 3412, 4123 x 1000

    The other five are:

    1243, 2431, 4312, 3124
    1324, 3241, 2413, 4132
    1342, 3421, 4213, 2134
    1423, 4231, 2314, 3142
    1432, 4321, 3214, 2143


    The first and last sequences are the easiest. 
    Start on one string only, then try going from bottom string to top string - bottom E 1234, then A string 2341 etc. Up to top E string, then moving up a semitone (3412), then coming down the strings, all on the fret above where you were previously. Then up again. 

    Also just try humming the notes to yourself when on a train etc. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • @viz The approach you describe sounds similar to what I discuss in the first video at the top of this thread.  My experience is that for most, this method soon ceases to yield results, certainly in proportion to the time invested. That's not to say it doesn't work for some, and if you're one of them, it only makes sense to keep doing it!
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited September 2017
    @viz The approach you describe sounds similar to what I discuss in the first video at the top of this thread.  My experience is that for most, this method soon ceases to yield results, certainly in proportion to the time invested. That's not to say it doesn't work for some, and if you're one of them, it only makes sense to keep doing it!
    Hi there. It is similar, but of course it's not repeating the same 4-note cycle so it's far more testing than the chromatic one or the 1243 repetition that you describe. The point is that, as the order changes every half second or so, neither fingers nor brain can relax until you have quite a high degree of independence. In fact what I do to keep it difficult is cycle through all 6 groups of 4 cycles of 4 notes - ie 96 notes, as below. Like this:

    1234234134124123,1243243143123124,1324324124134132,1342342142132134,1423423123143142,1432432132142143. 

    And actually I change the order of the six groups as well. It's a good tongue twister, or should that be finger twister. Obviously you're right, it does get easier and ceases to be useful once you've got your fingers used to it, and then it's time to look for something else. But many guitarists will find this a challenge. And if you can do this then your fingers will be able to work quite independently. My fingers have always lagged behind my brain, by miles - I have thousands of tunes in my head - but gaining control of my hand in this way has enabled me to play more and more of them, and the practical application of my improvisational ideas has improved over the years because of this and other similar exercises that I've invented to  stretch me in areas I'm weak in. 

    But I think the MOST important thing, for me anyway, is to be musical. Music is an art. It cannot be mastered through finger exercises alone. I admit, my system has been useful, for me, as a way to help convert my ideas into reality, which is why I share it, but if you're saying that things like this are not the most important thing by a long shot, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    This is sort of what I mean:

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Old_SwannerOld_Swanner Frets: 24
    edited September 2017
    @viz said
    if you're saying things like this are not the most important thing by a long shot, then I wholeheartedly agree with you. 
    The most important thing is always that which is currently standing right in front of you blocking your way.  With your example (and I think this goes for any new combination of notes) it will initially be a purely mental challenge in terms of getting the pattern into one's head (I'll assume at least an intermediate level of physical competence).  Once this is bypassed and speed increases, at some point it's likely to become a purely physical challenge, where one or more of the required movements lack the sufficient strength to make it on time.  For most IMO it's now probable that no amount of brute force repetition can improve things and purely physical investigation is required to a deeper level.

    I liken this situation to that of a martial arts student who doesn't have enough flexibility/stretch in his legs to kick to a certain height.  Sure, we couldn't completely dismiss the possibility that by executing the kick to his current maximum height repeatedly and trying to push higher he would gain extra stretch, but the accepted approach is to work on stretching the relevant components of the leg in isolated "practice".  Returning to test out the kick with increased flexibility and possibly never having even attempted the kick in the meantime, the student would find his potential in this move to be enhanced.  This would be the best time for repetition.


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  • Right,the prescribed exercises,1234 2341 3412 ect. Are relying on support from other fingers,it's not the same as playing 14 13 13 13 14 14.   Then 13 14 14 13 13 13.  

    There are many fingers supporting the hand in the first example,but not in my example.in my example,which is standard fingering for a pentatonic for most people(give or take a slight variation in fingering) many times the hand is on one finger,sure you can keep all fingers down (lightly)on the fretboard,on unused strings,throughout the scale,which I can actually do,but it never feels that comfortable,is slow,and ultimately defeating.
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  • colskicolski Frets: 20
    edited September 2017
    I've always been of the opinion that the whole 1234 thing isn't necessarily beneficial. I mean if you play it enough, yes, you'll get very good at it. But why not play something musical instead and try to get better at that? Mike Stern’s chromazone for example. 
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  • colski said:
    I've always been of the opinion that the whole 1234 thing isn't necessarily beneficial. I mean if you play it enough, yes, you'll get very good at it. But why not play something musical instead and try to get better at that? Mike Stern’s chromazone for example. 

    Yeah man those 1234 exercises drive me up the walls mate!  I prefer to practice things I can use musically, like one string patterns, Yngwie and Gilbert patterns etc.
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  • DanjiDanji Frets: 225
    colski said:
    I've always been of the opinion that the whole 1234 thing isn't necessarily beneficial. I mean if you play it enough, yes, you'll get very good at it. But why not play something musical instead and try to get better at that? Mike Stern’s chromazone for example. 
    finger independence = Bach's Lute Suites or something with some excellent counterpoint 
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  • Old_SwannerOld_Swanner Frets: 24
    edited September 2017
    Danji said:

    finger independence = Bach's Lute Suites or something with some excellent counterpoint 
    I've no doubt great finger independence is required to perform these pieces well.  The question is whether simply learning them will by itself improve finger independence?

    It's the same situation as I outlined above re. martial arts.  An equivalent statement to yours would be something like "martial arts physical ability = kicking to head height".  But my interest liies in answering questions like "Can you get that ability just by repeatedly trying to kick higher?" (and I'm not saying that's not possible for some), or "Is there a better way?"
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  • DanjiDanji Frets: 225
    Danji said:

    finger independence = Bach's Lute Suites or something with some excellent counterpoint 
    I've no doubt great finger independence is required to perform these pieces well.  The question is whether simply learning them will itself improve finger independence?

    It's the same situation as I outlined above re. martial arts.  An equivalent statement to yours would be something like "martial arts physical ability = kicking to head height".  But my interest liies in answering questions like "Can you get that ability just by repeatedly trying to kick higher?" (and I'm not saying that's not possible for some), or "Is there a better way?"
    I'll upload a video showing you what I mean, rather than trying to explain in text, it'll be easier 
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