The proverbial gig volume dilemma

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  • CirrusCirrus Frets: 8481
    edited July 2017
    I have opinions about this.

    My ideal is always to have a balanced backline, with guitar + bass amps set at a volume that makes sense for the music when they're sitting next to a drum kit. Basically, if the PA cuts out, I'd like to still sound like a slightly quieter and less low-end reinforced version of what was already being heard - after all, the PA is sound reinforcement, not replacement.

    To that end, when we're setting up I make a point of *starting* at a low volume - as quiet as I'm comfortable with - and work from there. I try to take control of the situation a little by asking my drummer, preferably when the soundguy is in earshot so they can get involved if they want to, to play their kit at the volume they're actually going to play at. Inevitably, he taps the f*cking things and I have to goad him on with screams of "HARDER! AAARRGGGHH" but eventually we arrive at a reasonable approximation of what the actual stage volume of the kit is going to be.

    Then I play along. Usually, I can barely hear myself, so I nudge up the volume until I feel confident that I'll be able to hear what I'm doing. No louder, I'm not trying to drown out the drums. Just get a natural dynamic between the instruments on stage. Few soundmen have a problem with that - I arrive at a level that makes sense in the room, and IME it's only the inexperienced ones who want the guitar to be inaudible.

    This is a more positive way to do it than to leave yourself to the mercy of soundcheck, because then what happens is they check the drums, which the drummer plays much quieter than they're actually going to, then bass, which due to its distribution of frequencies tends to be quite easy on the ear even at high volume, then guitar which is all midrange frequencies that the ear is sensitive to, so inevitably you get told to turn down to a level that's way too quiet once the rest of the band are playing.

    So my advice to you is thus: Be proactive in setting your volume. work with the drummer, and let the band see you working with the drummer. If they still complain, tell them they can either buy you a modelling amp and the drummer an electronic kit if they want zero stage volume, STFU and get over themselves, or tell the drummer to hit less hard so you don't need to be as loud to hear yourself.

    As an aside, what are China cymbals even for, unless you're in a metal band so deranged that regular cymbals can't cut through?

    Edit: The singer doesn't want monitors? WTF?
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  • RocknRollDaveRocknRollDave Frets: 6436
    You could always turn down onstage, but mic up your amp into a little headphone amp or suchlike, into some in-ear phones. Do it on the cheap, with a wire that traisl down your back onto the floor, like I do, and it's not expensive but is effective. Have your guitar as loud as you need in your ears!

    Have you heard the front of house mix for yourself? I would recommend getting a very long lead - unless you have wireless, in which case even better - and hear for yourself where your guitar sits in the mix out there, whether it really IS too loud or not. Keep an open mind, be honest with yourself if it really is a bit louder than it needs to be or stick to your guns if it sits well in the FOH mix as things stand.
    That way, having heard it for yourself, you're in a better position to argue your case and/ or compromise.

    If you find that , in actual fact, your amp CAN come down a few notches and still cut through, then you have a wee problem as it means your man is kind of right, annoying as that may be!

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    A 5E3 amp on full whack is pretty loud, you might be too loud out front to be honest but anyway your kind of trying to solve a volume problem with more volume and that never works .... just leads to a load of deaf muso's

    First up if you stand next to a hard hitting drummer then you should have some protection, you need to get what you hear at a lower volume, then work with a solution such as IEM's to hear yourself properly. 



    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • TheBigDipperTheBigDipper Frets: 4722
    As the new boy, you won't be listened to ("We were alright before he came along..."). If they aren't "truth seekers" regarding front-of-house sound balance and onstage balance then you're onto a loser from the very start. Sorry to pour cold water over your new situation, but it might always be an uphill struggle. If, however, the other people can have a grown-up conversation, then you're in shape to make positive changes that everyone will welcome. The risk is they fire you for making trouble. :-( 
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  • ecc83ecc83 Frets: 1592

    My 'RnR namesake beat me to it! OP does not even need a headphone amp Dave. If he has some basic electronics smarts he can croc a 1k* pot across the speaker terminals and pick off  easily enough juice to power some cans.

    As it comes, the feed would be mono in one ear but that would be an advantage IMHO leaving the other lug free to hear the rest of the band.

    The band does not seem to me to be well balanced? Someone out front one night  recording them from 3mtrs or so away, even on a phone might cause some soul searching re personal loudness?

    *Might need to jiggle that value a bit depending on speaker Z and to get a decent 'law'.


    Dave.

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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    impmann said:
    Your singer is a prat. Just sayin'...
    L.S.D. - Lead Singer Disease (or disorder)

    Singer declines conventional wedge or in-ear monitors THEN complains of being unable to hear himself as clearly as he would wish over the band. Duh!

    What does he do in small venues, where early reflections from the walls blur the amplified music? 

    I can see that it might be gratifying for a lead vocalist to feel that he stands "in front" of the wall of sound that the band creates. I can understand that the physical resonances of the pitched instruments might help with vocal intonation. Apart from that, the issue seems to me to be unbridled egotism on the part of the singer/bassist/P.A. owner.
    Be seeing you.
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
    edited July 2017
    if drums are miced than damn sure you need to be too - your sound is way more directional than the drums.

    Mic up, let PA deal with FOH and angle your amp so it points up at you

    I used one of these: https://www.thomann.de/gb/standback_ampstand.htm with my Dr Z Maz - I found it indispensable!  It folds up and lived in the back of the amp when not in use 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    Can you just mic your amp and put it into your own smallish private powered wedge monitor? You need one anyway, to rest your foot on when you play a solo. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • bbill335bbill335 Frets: 1368
    The singer will always want to hear his voice over everything else, which is fine and makes sense but it means he shouldn't share his monitors with the crowd in the form of the FOH rig (which is what he's currently doing). 

    Are you mic'ing the whole drumkit? Usually the only thing that needs micing is the kick. Bass is odd, some players are amp players, others ampless and go DI, most are somewhere in between. My ideal is someone with an amp for monitoring that DIs into a PA with subs but you work with what you're given.

    Give the singer a wedge or sell him on the in-ears idea. He can keep an ear on FOH sound now and then but at the minute, everyone's hearing his monitor mix and that won't really suit anybody but him.
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  • newi123newi123 Frets: 850
    How can you possibly be too loud in a rock band with a 5E3????????? What has the world come to.............

    Personally, I like the onstage sound to be balanced - so the guitars and bass matched to the level of the drums. That`s louder or quieter depending how hard the drummer hits. The drum kit is the one thing you can`t turn down - so if the rest of the backline isn`t managed in this way, the drums are too loud. 

    If it doesn`t work like that then I don`t enjoy it. Given I play music for fun and have a real job to pay the bills, there is no point being in the band if I don`t enjoy it. 




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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16256
    edited July 2017
    viz said:
    Can you just mic your amp and put it into your own smallish private powered wedge monitor? You need one anyway, to rest your foot on when you play a solo. 
    I need a powered monitor just to go over the sound of the huge electric fan I have that blows my hair...

    In small pubs we often don't use monitors, in those kind of environments it can be hard to get any useable volume without feedback out of them and they take up a chunk of floor space. On the other hand we have used them unplugged just to mark out a 'stage' space. However, given any preference we like monitors and a gig is basically undoable without one for the drummer. Overall, it sounds like we aren't as loud as the OP's band though; I wonder if they ever get asked back to a place having blown the roof off. 

    It might be an an idea to do a rehearsal with full band gear just to work on levels and get a clearer idea of how it all fits together. Ideally borrowing a neutral person with a decent set of ears as well. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • Your singer sounds like the equivalent of an actor playing the lead in and directing a play at the same time. It rarely works.
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    Ossyrocks said:
    Thanks for all the input chaps, there are some useful contributions for consideration.

    No, the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig. I think that's where the fundamental issue arises.

    Fairly loud drummer (who plays well and I enjoy playing with), mic'ed up backline and drums as the singer wants to create the perfect mix out front, and then contrary to what you would expect, we have no monitoring. So if I turn down, as the singer wants, I would not really be able to hear myself, but he would, as he's up front listening to the main mix and I'm at the back struggling to hear anyone except the drums on my immediate left.

    I don't think I will be able to convince him to use monitors, so I'll have to find ways to get my amp out of the way where I can hear it well, but it's not bothering him.

    Cheers!
    Yeah that is idiotic. Shows a lack of experience. When you are p[laying wee vocal PA gigs you can get yourself coming off the back wall but any singer who doesn't want a monitor either can't sing or doesn't think they can..
    Either way they aren't fit for the job
    If you are going to stick it out I would suggest the same as others here and get a tilt back amp stand and put it to the side of you or in front of you so you can hear it
    No one else will be able to but it doesn't sound like it bothers them that much

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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7350
    edited July 2017
    I missed the part where the singer won't use a monitor - that is just crazy 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    scalino65 said:
    I know naff all about live stuff, but cant you just stand somewhere else?
    Like next to different singer.......
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • professorbenprofessorben Frets: 5105
    Your singer sounds like the equivalent of an actor playing the lead in and directing a play at the same time. It rarely works.
    Write the theme tune.... Sing the theme tune.....
    " Why does it smell of bum?" Mrs Professorben.
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  • John_AJohn_A Frets: 3775
    Regardless of how daft it is that the singer wont use a monitor, you are new to the band and have to accommodate the others that were there before you, as others have said, point the amp directly at you and away from the singer.  Keeps him happy, keeps you in the band and happy too :)
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    Cabicular said:
    Ossyrocks said:
    Thanks for all the input chaps, there are some useful contributions for consideration.

    No, the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig. I think that's where the fundamental issue arises.

    Fairly loud drummer (who plays well and I enjoy playing with), mic'ed up backline and drums as the singer wants to create the perfect mix out front, and then contrary to what you would expect, we have no monitoring. So if I turn down, as the singer wants, I would not really be able to hear myself, but he would, as he's up front listening to the main mix and I'm at the back struggling to hear anyone except the drums on my immediate left.

    I don't think I will be able to convince him to use monitors, so I'll have to find ways to get my amp out of the way where I can hear it well, but it's not bothering him.

    Cheers!
    Yeah that is idiotic. Shows a lack of experience. When you are p[laying wee vocal PA gigs you can get yourself coming off the back wall but any singer who doesn't want a monitor either can't sing or doesn't think they can..
    Either way they aren't fit for the job
    If you are going to stick it out I would suggest the same as others here and get a tilt back amp stand and put it to the side of you or in front of you so you can hear it
    No one else will be able to but it doesn't sound like it bothers them that much


    We regularly gig with no monitors.

    Our singer is by far and away the best I have ever worked with.

    OK that band doesn't play that loud, but we can all hear fine.
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  • CabicularCabicular Frets: 2214
    jpfamps said:
    Cabicular said:
    Ossyrocks said:
    Thanks for all the input chaps, there are some useful contributions for consideration.

    No, the singer has no monitors either, he doesn't like them and likes to hear himself from the main rig. I think that's where the fundamental issue arises.

    Fairly loud drummer (who plays well and I enjoy playing with), mic'ed up backline and drums as the singer wants to create the perfect mix out front, and then contrary to what you would expect, we have no monitoring. So if I turn down, as the singer wants, I would not really be able to hear myself, but he would, as he's up front listening to the main mix and I'm at the back struggling to hear anyone except the drums on my immediate left.

    I don't think I will be able to convince him to use monitors, so I'll have to find ways to get my amp out of the way where I can hear it well, but it's not bothering him.

    Cheers!
    Yeah that is idiotic. Shows a lack of experience. When you are p[laying wee vocal PA gigs you can get yourself coming off the back wall but any singer who doesn't want a monitor either can't sing or doesn't think they can..
    Either way they aren't fit for the job
    If you are going to stick it out I would suggest the same as others here and get a tilt back amp stand and put it to the side of you or in front of you so you can hear it
    No one else will be able to but it doesn't sound like it bothers them that much


    We regularly gig with no monitors.

    Our singer is by far and away the best I have ever worked with.

    OK that band doesn't play that loud, but we can all hear fine.
    What size of venues? 
    What size of PA?
    Ive done it with vocal PAs in smaller venues or at the odd wedding but at a rock gig ...?

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  • uncledickuncledick Frets: 403
    I bought myself a Line 6 G10 wireless thingy purposely to sort this kind of issue.  You can wander around the room and see where you sit in the mix.  Highly recommended.
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