Alternate picking slowing down

stratman3142

DLM said:

...Oh, and here's a massive caveat from Terry Syrek: https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Diary_of_a_So_Called_Shredder_The_Dreaded_GIFO_Disease

That's a great article. I'm convinced there's no 'absolute' correct way, although it's good to experiment with different approaches.

The exercise in Fig.1 has piqued my interest. I use a similar exercise but always play it as triplets (groups of three) or semiquaver triplets (groups of 6). Playing it in semiquavers (groups of 4) and alternating with semiquaver triplets (groups of 6) is going to do my head in for a while and is likely to be my next obsession

DLM

@stratman3142 Terry Syrek is great. Even now, with the dystonia. Inspirational.

Welcome to my world! I love it when the phrasing changes through gears like that. It's a feature of some classic Racer X riffs, and also some Di Meola and Holdsworth lines that really caught my ear. 

In terms of @RedRabbit's technique development, it's one step beyond resting in between "speed bursts".

RedRabbit

For those that have been asking about the exercises I'm talking about...

 http://i.imgur.com/nYo2k7Y.jpg

 This one continues through the pentatonic shape making it 5 bars in total. I can get this up to about 120bpm.

http://i.imgur.com/C9X39LI.jpg

 I'm told this is a Paul Gilbert style lick.  I can get up to 116bpm - maybe 120 on a good day

http://i.imgur.com/pOiafoe.jpg

This one comes from a Queen solo (A Kind of Magic I think).  On the original every two beats were recorded separately and played using a mix of picking and legato but my tutor thought the full phrase would make for a good alt picking exercise.  This is the one that I really struggle with.  I had got it up to 116/120bpm but then got stuck at 104.  Currently back up to around 108 but I'm still not sure what's caused the set back.

http://i.imgur.com/UH4QJgj.jpg

This is one of the single string exercise I've been doing - it continues down the neck finishing at the 5th fret.  If warmed up I can play this cleanly at 140bpm - maybe a little faster.

In terms of rests between repetitions - the first and last exercises I'll tend to rest for a bar between repeats.  The two two bar phrases I'll loop so the only rest is the quarter note at the end of the phrase.  Either way I try to get through 5 clean repetitions before increasing the speed which I have been doing at 4bpm increments though I have reduced it to 2bpm when I get near my limit now.

bingefeller

@RedRabbit 140bpm for that last lick is damn impressvie!

RedRabbit

bingefeller said:

@RedRabbit 140bpm for that last lick is damn impressvie!

Must admit that I might have remembered that slightly incorrectly.  I'm sure I've been able to do it at 140bpm in the past but I maxed out at 1 clean repetition @ 136bpm when I tried at lunchtime.  Not too far off I guess and close enough that, based on your reaction, I can be reasonably happy that my picking mechanics are okay - it's just string crossing that's tripping me up.

I've watched some of the Troy Grady material on youtube (Cracking the Code?) but it seemed to only superficially tackle the problem (more entertainment than instruction).  I'm guessing that the paid for material covers things in more depth but having spent money on a Claus Levin course before (possibly very good but I never got past the seemingly endless waffle) I'm wary of buying another video course.

bingefeller

This lick presents a number of string skipping problems:


Troy Grady's lesson should help you sort things out to be able to navigate it a little better and get playing it faster:

RedRabbit

Cheers - I'll give it a watch when I get home.

I take your a fan of the Troy Grady videos then.  Have you tried any of the paid for material?

digitalkettle

RedRabbit said:

Cheers - I'll give it a watch when I get home.

I take your a fan of the Troy Grady videos then.  Have you tried any of the paid for material?

I digested most of the freely available info from Troy...it has altered the way I pick slightly: I already see a definite 'strategy' for the example that @bingefeller reposted.

Most importantly, I can see what I need to avoid, e.g. starting three notes per string on a downstroke with a 'downward pick slant' would require a 'bounce' to get over to the next string for the upstroke. So what do you do? Start on an upstroke / start with upward pick slanting / even number of notes per string / etc.

I don't like the idea of pre-canned approaches...so I started experimenting with changing the slant on demand...it starts to ingrain after a while and, when you get it right, it feels good

bingefeller

RedRabbit said:

Cheers - I'll give it a watch when I get home.

I take your a fan of the Troy Grady videos then.  Have you tried any of the paid for material?

Yeah I think his take on picking is really interesting to watch even for people, such as myself, who know they will never reach super fast speeds and don't practice trying to get there any more.  I have quite a lot of his paid material and it's worth the money.  

Have you ever considered changing the way you hold the pick completely?  

About 10 years ago I saw the Shawn Lane "Paris" DVD and noticed the way he held the pick - he slices through the strings, just like Jorge Strunz does - 



I'm 99% sure that Jimmy Herring, Chris Poland and George Benson use this picking technique too, although I haven't seen them picking up close so I can't be sure.  Bruce Bouilett picks like this and Paul Gilbert used to pick like this.

It's also how I have been holding the pick for many years now.  This enables me to use very light picks (Dunlop Max Grip .60mm) because I am slicing the strings the thickness doesn't matter because the pick isn't really bending, plus lighter picks give me a lighter attack.  




So, where does this way of picking help with alternate?  

Well, I find it gives you more of pendulum like movement, the tip of the pick is dipping in an out between the strings without having to worrying about pick slanting.  Watch this video from 11:03 onwards with the flamingo analogy.




Here is my attempt at your Gilbert lick, I play about 120bpm then increase to 126bpm and it does get difficult, but I guess with more practice I could maybe get it up to 130bpm.  





Changing the way you hold the pick might be the very thing you're after.

stratman3142

RedRabbit said:

For those that have been asking about the exercises I'm talking about...

 http://i.imgur.com/nYo2k7Y.jpg

 This one continues through the pentatonic shape making it 5 bars in total. I can get this up to about 120bpm.

http://i.imgur.com/C9X39LI.jpg

 I'm told this is a Paul Gilbert style lick.  I can get up to 116bpm - maybe 120 on a good day

http://i.imgur.com/pOiafoe.jpg

This one comes from a Queen solo (A Kind of Magic I think).  On the original every two beats were recorded separately and played using a mix of picking and legato but my tutor thought the full phrase would make for a good alt picking exercise.  This is the one that I really struggle with.  I had got it up to 116/120bpm but then got stuck at 104.  Currently back up to around 108 but I'm still not sure what's caused the set back.

http://i.imgur.com/UH4QJgj.jpg

This is one of the single string exercise I've been doing - it continues down the neck finishing at the 5th fret.  If warmed up I can play this cleanly at 140bpm - maybe a little faster.

In terms of rests between repetitions - the first and last exercises I'll tend to rest for a bar between repeats.  The two two bar phrases I'll loop so the only rest is the quarter note at the end of the phrase.  Either way I try to get through 5 clean repetitions before increasing the speed which I have been doing at 4bpm increments though I have reduced it to 2bpm when I get near my limit now.

The speeds you're achieving seem fairly respectable and I'm not sure I can do much better.

I can offer some observations on my attempts and difficulties in playing them, that could serve as a basis for discussion and maybe (based on comments from others) help me improve as well.

Ex 1: That's (what I call) an Eric Johnson type riff. To play it, I find it easiest to adopt a downward pick slant which helps me clear the strings during string crossing. From a cold start I can do about the same as you, which is 120bpm. After I've warmed up, I can currently get it up to about 130bpm. It's not obvious to me that I could get it much higher in speed with my current approach to picking it. Obviously I can go faster if I use pull offs, which is how I would probably play it in a real world scenario.

Ex 2: That's fairly similar to the second excercise in Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock 1 video, except he plays it on the top two strings on the 12, 13 and 15th frets, using fingers 1, 2 and 4. 

I use fingers 1, 3 and 4 for your lick (although I suppose some might do it with the 1, 2 and 3 fingers). I can go a bit faster with this one but I can't get the clarity I would like with a clean sound. For this exercise (and the Paul Gilbert exercise) I hold the pick fairly vertically (i.e. the plane of the pick is approximately orthogonal to the plane of the guitar body) and at an angle to the guitar string. At speed I don't fully clear the strings when crossing so I end up 'swiping', giving a bit of a messy sound. I could probably get away with it in a band context with a distorted sound. It's not clear to me how I could avoid 'swiping', so I think it's more about limiting the extraneous noise.

Ex. 3: The main problem I had at first was working out the left hand fingering for the Queen solo thing. In the first bar, I found it easiest to slide my first finger for the G# to A (still picking every note) before stretching to the C# with my fourth finger (anyone else got any thoughts?). Even so, I can only currently get this up to 120bpm after warming up. I think it's my left hand fingering and loss of concentration that's mainly at fault when it occasionally falls apart at that tempo.

Ex. 4: My left hand fingering is the limiting factor in the maximum speed for this exercise (and I'm left handed). I have managed to sporadically play it at 140bpm but then my concentration goes and it all falls apart again

In summary:

Ex. 1 and 2: I think it's my right hand picking that's the main limiting factor. It's not clear how I could make this any faster using my current approaches. I could just improve the consistency in playing at about 130bpm and maybe faster and clearer with exercise 2.

Ex. 3: The left hand fingering is my biggest issue in being consistent, but then I think my right hand would impose a limitation on maximum speed. It's not clear how I could make this any faster using my current approaches. I could just improve the consistency in playing at 120bpm.

Ex. 4: Left hand fingering is the limiting factor for me. I think practice, and getting the fingering embedded in my brain, might help me to get more consistent and faster with this exercise. 

DLM

Oooh @Bingefeller, I didn't realise you were a Benson-style picker!

Dan mentions many other players who use this grip.

I, too, am a fan of Troy Grady's content. I've only consumed his free stuff thus far, though. I can see that some folks would struggle with his format, but there's a lot to be learned piecemeal, even without parting with any cash. I love the level of detail he goes into, but I'm a nerd who remembers Judy Letostak.

Grady's CtC episode on Eric Johnson would sort you for the first lick.

I'm not familiar enough with Queen to recognise the original lick in your five-string example, OP, so I might be missing something, but it struck me as an awkward fingering (A to C# on the B-string?) to use as an exercise. How do you fare with a straight three-note-per-string scale over five strings?

bingefeller

@DLM cool picture, I forgot about some of those other guys who pick like that.  

The thing about Troy's stuff is that it's quite technical and very, very deep.  The stuff on Youtube covers about 90% of what's in his paid material.  If you want the tabs and full length interviews then it's worth the money.  

digitalkettle

@stratman3142 ;;

Here's where I'm at with the Queen exercise:

http://i.imgur.com/gNQKpK2.png
I cut the stretch out

stratman3142

digitalkettle said:

@stratman3142 ;;

Here's where I'm at with the Queen exercise:

http://i.imgur.com/gNQKpK2.png
I cut the stretch out

Yes I think that might be a easier, but I've got used to the original version so I'll have to practice it. I did try putting the C# on the 1st string 9th fret but found that even harder.

RedRabbit

digitalkettle said:

@stratman3142 ;;

Here's where I'm at with the Queen exercise:

http://i.imgur.com/gNQKpK2.png
I cut the stretch out

The lick is an amalgamation of two parts. I think each phrase is 2 beats long so the C# sharp at the 14th fret is the first note of the second phrase. It's also probably worth noting that May used quite a bit of legato when playing it - mainly for the descending parts I think. For what it's worth the original recording was just shy of 140bpm.

As an exercise it's been pretty useful if only for causing me to start this discussion.

@bingefeller I've watched quite a bit of Cracking the Code and some other Troy Grady videos over the past couple of days.  Found some very interesting stuff on the mechanics of picking with some visuals which have made me look at how I actually pick.  When I've got more time I'll post a link to the video and go into a bit more depth about what I've found out and what I'm thinking about now.

For the time being I think it suffices to say that I may have just jumped down a rabbit hole!

DLM

Nice notation software, @digitalkettle! What is it? The engraving style makes me nostalgic.

digitalkettle

@DLM it's Guitar Pro 7

bingefeller

digitalkettle said:

@DLM it's Guitar Pro 7

@digitalkettle how do you set up GP 7 like that? 

MatthewShreddery

Aside from all the good stuff people have already said, have you tried reversing the picking. As in, starting on an up instead of a down, or vice-versa

RedRabbit

The videos I watched last night that has really got my brain ticking over are this one



and this one




Most of my picking motion is coming from the wrist (wrist deviation as it's referred to in the first video) with a tiny bit of forearm rotation and no movement from the elbow.  I'm thinking the heavy wrist involvement is leading to quite a bit of fatigue.  

The second video shows Troy using primarily forearm rotation to get his main picking motion.  I'm assuming this is what a lot of material tends to describe as a motion like turning a door knob - this analogy never made sense to me being a wrist picker.

Just by moving my arm about away from the guitar forearm rotation feels more natural and I can make a picking movement much quicker than I can with just the wrist and there seems to be far less fatigue.  

It seems to be something worth exploring but, at the moment, actually picking from the forearm feels very unnatural (presumably due to how long I've been picking from the wrist) with very little control.

Obviously the other big thing that crops up in Cracking the Code is pick slanting.  I think this is something I've already been doing to a certain degree but the angle of the pick changes as I move across the strings.  I start off on the high E with quite a pronounced downward pick slant.  By the time I get up to the low E the angle is pretty much perpendicular to the strings - if anything there's probably a bit of upward slant.

If I focus on the Eric Johnson style lick above - where I tend to get caught up is on the lower strings particularly on the A and E pairing.  If I just play the pattern on the top three strings I can get up to 126bpm.  Not a huge gain but considering I've not really changed anything yet it's enough proof to convince me there some validity to the approach.

It does seem that the downward pick slanting only really helps with certain licks though.  The Paul Gilbert lick doesn't benefit from it unless I start it with an upstroke (and that feels weird enough that it's actually slowing my down at the moment) and the Brian May lick changes string on both up and down strokes which confuses matters slightly.  It's a shame I don't have the original transcription anymore - I don't know how Brian May picks but, assuming he's a downward pick slanter, I'm guessing his use of legato may well coincide with where a string change would otherwise occur after a down stroke.

Anyway, I'm going to persevere with both downward pick slanting and forearm rotation for a while and see where it gets me.  The seeming limitations of downward pick slanting do concern me a bit but given that I'm a huge Eric Johnson fan I think I can get some decent mileage out of it.