Scales to solos

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  • Sing a solo first. Then work out how to play it. Eventually you won't need to sing it first. 
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  • VeganicVeganic Frets: 673
    Sing a solo first. Then work out how to play it. Eventually you won't need to sing it first. 
    Can you post some of your "singing solos" to youtube please? 
    I can see that becoming a thing.
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  • viz said:
    Barney said:
    Everybody seems to practice scales I've 2 maybe 3 octaves...while this is ok to see where te notes are it's not very good e.g. to be musical ...you can break out of it a bit with arpeggios or maybe just take one octave scale and mess with it for a while altering timings and note placement and make melodies ...a scale is a bit like the alphabet..before you can talk you need to know phrases..
    Yes, exactly, and your brain and your heart are FAR better at making up tunes than your fingers, so start at that end, rather than from the technique-end. Scales are for practising dexterity not for improvising melodies. 

    I wonder if that's true for everyone. You've got perfect pitch (yay) :).  I haven't (boo) :(.

    Scales are my way points. I need them as a reference for sound. If I hear a song, or think of a melody, I might know which scale to use or how to modify that scale, but it would be a quick fumble to find the key. I'd be lost without having an idea of the underlying scale.
    It's not a competition.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Scales are a good tool for learning where the notes are located on the fretboard and improving facility to move fluidly around the fretboard.

    Once you learn all the notes within a scale(s) pattern/location, sing melodies and then find the notes within these scale(s).
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1367
    edited August 2017
    Jalapeno said:
    Fretwired said:
    Learn arpeggios ..
    This.
    First and foremost this /\

    I tend not to think of scales as such, but more think about the relevant keys i.e. what sharps or flats are needed rather than the linear sequence of scales.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Arps can sound as dreary as scales if over played. As a young player I spent a lot of time playing Major and minor intervals. 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, 7ths, Octaves, 9ths, 10ths, 11ths, 12ths, 13ths, 14ths, 15ths.............. this involves string skipping and knowing where the notes are within a scale and on the fretboard. Train your ear to recognise these intervals.

    Look up interval practice with Google.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    edited August 2017
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Everybody seems to practice scales I've 2 maybe 3 octaves...while this is ok to see where te notes are it's not very good e.g. to be musical ...you can break out of it a bit with arpeggios or maybe just take one octave scale and mess with it for a while altering timings and note placement and make melodies ...a scale is a bit like the alphabet..before you can talk you need to know phrases..
    Yes, exactly, and your brain and your heart are FAR better at making up tunes than your fingers, so start at that end, rather than from the technique-end. Scales are for practising dexterity not for improvising melodies. 

    I wonder if that's true for everyone. You've got perfect pitch (yay) .  I haven't (boo) .

    Scales are my way points. I need them as a reference for sound. If I hear a song, or think of a melody, I might know which scale to use or how to modify that scale, but it would be a quick fumble to find the key. I'd be lost without having an idea of the underlying scale.
    Lol re. yay and boo!

    But surely for someone like you, and I know you're an awse player and musician, it's not the lack of perfect pitch that causes this, but the eternal struggle that we all have of trying immediately to snap to the right notes on the f'board according to what we already hear in our brain? We have good relative pitch, regardless of whether we have perfect pitch as well, but we still find it hard to play what we can sing, is that not true?

    edit - actually that isn't what I'm trying to say. What I really mean is, yes we recognise patterns and ascribe them to scales as we play, which can help, and which is using theory for what I think it's most useful for - describing what is happening and making things familiar, - but probably what we don't do is start off from the scale and confine ourselves to play within it. Or at least, not consciously or deliberately.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2176
    edited August 2017
    viz said:
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Everybody seems to practice scales I've 2 maybe 3 octaves...while this is ok to see where te notes are it's not very good e.g. to be musical ...you can break out of it a bit with arpeggios or maybe just take one octave scale and mess with it for a while altering timings and note placement and make melodies ...a scale is a bit like the alphabet..before you can talk you need to know phrases..
    Yes, exactly, and your brain and your heart are FAR better at making up tunes than your fingers, so start at that end, rather than from the technique-end. Scales are for practising dexterity not for improvising melodies. 

    I wonder if that's true for everyone. You've got perfect pitch (yay) .  I haven't (boo) .

    Scales are my way points. I need them as a reference for sound. If I hear a song, or think of a melody, I might know which scale to use or how to modify that scale, but it would be a quick fumble to find the key. I'd be lost without having an idea of the underlying scale.
    Lol re. yay and boo!

    But surely for someone like you, and I know you're an awse player and musician, it's not the lack of perfect pitch that causes this, but the eternal struggle that we all have of trying immediately to snap to the right notes on the f'board according to what we already hear in our brain? We have good relative pitch, regardless of whether we have perfect pitch as well, but we still find it hard to play what we can sing, is that not true?

    edit - actually that isn't what I'm trying to say. What I really mean is, yes we recognise patterns and ascribe them to scales as we play, which can help, and which is using theory for what I think it's most useful for - describing what is happening and making things familiar, - but probably what we don't do is start off from the scale and confine ourselves to play within it. Or at least, not consciously or deliberately.

     I don't disagree with your main points which are well made. I was just picking up on the statement that 'scales are for practicing dexterity not for improvising melodies'. But, I've probably misunderstood the point being made.

    I'm not 100% sure what's going on (or where it's coming from) when I improvise or invent a melody when composing, just as I don't fully know why I choose the words I do when I start talking.  Which I expect is true of most of us.

    I think, like most players, I've just copied loads of solos and melodies over the years (and continue to do so). In combination with that, I've related what I've learned to scales and become familiar with the sound of the parent scale and phrases (including arpeggios) within the scale. Then I've experimented in finding my own phrases within the scales, plus the effect of modifying the scale by adding such things as b5 and chromatic tones etc. This isn't just about notes, it's also rhythmic variation as others have mentioned.

    So, to use an incredibly corny analogy, scales are my paintboxes for sound and I can mix the colours a bit. - I think I'm going to throw up after saying that

    It's not a competition.
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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    Try this, create/sing a new melody away from the guitar and then play it on your guitar.

    If you can't play what you hear, you've not practiced this skill enough.

    Let your ears create music, don't let your fingers dictate what you play.
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • xDottorexDottore Frets: 274
    Tip: if you get lost in a solo, go chromatic. Then it becomes sort of jazzy n cool ("Nice!") and Definitely Not Wrong as long as it's still going along. Sooner or later, whether by design or happy accident, you'll resolve to an ok note, maybe even a root if you're in luck, and then you can breathe a sigh of relief and carry on normally. 

    Obviously, this can be overdone... (don't ask me how I know, I just know, ok?)

    You need an idea of what you are going to do, but it should be a vague idea.

    My feedback page: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/91654/
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  • KDSKDS Frets: 220
    Good thread, some tips I haven't thought of
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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
    Maybe I'm stating the obvious here - use vibrato, phrasing, bending, harmonics, loud/soft, etc. And yes - like they say - arpeggios.
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  • If you're talking about picking out notes in a scale to create a melody, I'd recommend listening closely to how your influences do it, (it probably didn't come out of a vacuum for them either).

    If you're talking about how to use scale shapes in a new or interesting way, then experimentation will be your ally, reverse a pattern, skip strings, add dimensions,  twist the shape around until you create something interesting.

    Hope it helps, cheers

    Max

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  • Haven't been here for a while, and haven't read all comments but...

    The intervals within the chosen scale are how you can think about it, and how you might get from note X to note Y, whether directly, via a linear run, arpeggio, double-back lar-de-dar twiddly-dee, whammy bar, etc, etc.

    I like to do things such as apply a modal approach to Eastern pentatonic scales as they fit nicely into standard Western modes with 'interesting' intervals.
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