Jan 2007 Vintage Guitar article on fake Marshalls

Three-ColourSunburst

I have been reading some of the fascinating history of what might be called 'The Doncaster Connection', and see that back in January 2007 Vintage Guitar magazine over in the US had an in-depth article on just how 'Vintage' Marshalls are faked. This article does not seem to be available anymore, but does anyone on here have a scan of it that they could post somewhere? (The issue featured Fender's Jazz Bass on the front.)

Thanks!

Babones

Oh, i thought it would be an article on modern Marshalls.

57Deluxe

or Marshalls from China even...

normula1

I was perusing through Aspen Pitman's Tube amp book the other day and he thanks a certain Doncaster store owner for his help

ICBM

normula1 said:

I was perusing through Aspen Pitman's Tube amp book the other day and he thanks a certain Doncaster store owner for his help

Yes...

I've always wondered how many of Aspen's vintage Marshalls are fakes, given that.

Bygone_Tones

Other books with 'contributions' from Doncaster are the Doyle History Of Marshall book, and 'Amps' by Richie Flieger. There are probably a lot more book contributions out there too.

Quite a clever strategy when you think about it. Most people wont question the information and photos found in books. God knows how many "exceptionally rare" brown pinstripe amps they sold as a result.

Three-ColourSunburst

Are there any books or other exposes about faking in the guitar and amp business? Reading around it is clear that fakery is rife, and yet forum debates on the topic often get shut down, posts deleted and many just seem to want to pretend that every perfectly aged 50's Strat or Les Paul is the real deal. I can imagine that most in the business, as well as owners, have a vested interest in ignoring this particular 'Elephant in the room' but surely someone must be pissed off enough to tell what they know?

Just so much one reads about vintage gear has 'scam' written all over it, as with those reports of a deal been negotiated to sell a Korina Explorer for over a million Dollars, with just who the buyer and seller were, and the provenance of the guitar involved not been made public. This was announced just as another Explorer with very, very doubtful provenance 'happened' to come on to the market for a mere 800,000 Dollars, with the same names apparently being involved in both sales! It's almost as if the first sale was made up in order to make anyone buying the second think they had got a bargain!

https://reverb.com/uk/news/58-gibson-explorer-breaks-guitar-sale-record

ICBM

Reverb said:

Justin Harrison

All you need to know… the deal is crooked in some way. Or more than one.

Bygone_Tones

Fake Britain on BBC, Series 5 Episode 15, if you can find it on iplayer or something. Although they mainly talk about their involvement with the stolen guitars in Italy with no mention of fake amps. It was on youtube but has mysteriously been taken down. You can always have a good look at their current offerings on reverb.com to see what they are currently getting away with selling

jpfamps

The legendary Fender Doncaster.......

goldtop

The 'revelation' that some very rare '67-ish Marshalls were made with a brown version of the pinstripe grille cloth was, IIRC, a Musicground invention. (Them having turned up a roll of the brown stuff when they ran short of grey stuff for their fakery.)

Three-ColourSunburst

goldtop said:

The 'revelation' that some very rare '67-ish Marshalls were made with a brown version of the pinstripe grille cloth was, IIRC, a Musicground invention. (Them having turned up a roll of the brown stuff when they ran short of grey stuff for their fakery.)

Thanks for that. It explains all the muttering about brown pinstripe cabs I have seen. This still has me puzzled though. Do you know the story behind this?

i can't believe how they get away with things. Stories about the secret chamber in the hiwatt 4x12's which were being shipped all over the world was horrifying enough

Bygone_Tones

Three-ColourSunburst said:

goldtop said:

The 'revelation' that some very rare '67-ish Marshalls were made with a brown version of the pinstripe grille cloth was, IIRC, a Musicground invention. (Them having turned up a roll of the brown stuff when they ran short of grey stuff for their fakery.)

Thanks for that. It explains all the muttering about brown pinstripe cabs I have seen. This still has me puzzled though. Do you know the story behind this?

That pretty much is the story. They got hold of a brown roll from somewhere and used it to make lash-ups. Then to help sell the lashups they contributed information and example amps to several books saying that it was "exceptionally rare". Theres a red bluesbreaker with the brown pinstripe shown in the Richie Flieger book I mentioned.

MG also used a grey repro material and it can be found on a lot of the old fakes. Here is an example:



Don't forget these are old fakes from the 80's and 90's. They will be doing it a lot more convincingly thesedays - swapping genuine parts and artifically ageing them. The old repro parts and faked speakers are too eays to spot now with the internet at everyones fingertips. Like I said, have a look at their current stock on reverb.com

Bygone_Tones

Here is one of their obvious lashed up pre-rola speakers with the fake ink stamps:



There are lots of things wrong with this speaker but without mentioning every detail the most obvious is that a genuine 21FM (supposedly 21st June 1967) date stamp would be on the front gasket, not on the frame. Also that style of Celestion frame with the four 'tabs' is no earlier than mid 1969.

Often they would slap a white Marshall label on the back too. Ignorant of the fact Marshall never used the T1217.

ourmaninthenorth

Plenty of UK guys that know what's who with these vintage Marshall's, one guy in particular in that there Londinium is the go to geezer. I wouldn't buy anything pre 1968 without him giving it the nod first. End of errand. 

There's salt in the water, be careful where you drink. 

IvisonGuitars

HOW on earth are these C*NTS still getting away with it???

ourmaninthenorth

miserneil said:

HOW on earth are these C*NTS still getting away with it???

It's mind numbing isn't it Neil? 

I often think of the old adage of a fool and his money being easily parted, but that just doesn't really cut it here. Some very knowledgeable people have fallen for these charlatans, so something I can't quite put my finger on is at play here. 

IvisonGuitars

ourmaninthenorth said:

miserneil said:

HOW on earth are these C*NTS still getting away with it???

It's mind numbing isn't it Neil? 

I often think of the old adage of a fool and his money being easily parted, but that just doesn't really cut it here. Some very knowledgeable people have fallen for these charlatans, so something I can't quite put my finger on is at play here. 

It just totally baffles me. It's so blatant and almost common knowledge.

I've just typed 'Music Ground' into Google. The first 2 stories are of Justin Harrison's court case and the Fake Britain article, the next is a link to Denmark Street Guitars, their latest 'front'. How are people not picking up on this??

Bygone_Tones

I think the simple answer is that for every person that knows about them, there are thousands more who don't, or maybe think they have changed their ways. Just look at their facebook or instagram. Lots of love and people drooling over the gear, and no people accusing them of selling lashups. Changing the business name helps too. All the negativity is associated with 'music ground', and they are now 'hanks' or 'london vintage' or something like that.

ourmaninthenorth

Bygone_Tones said:

I think the simple answer is that for every person that knows about them, there are thousands more who don't, or maybe think they have changed their ways. Just look at their facebook or instagram. Lots of love and people drooling over the gear, and no people accusing them of selling lashups. Changing the business name helps too. All the negativity is associated with 'music ground', and they are now 'hanks' or 'london vintage' or something like that.

That's a firm strike of head on nail. 

The London geezer, that you know too...Mr. M, has forgotten more about these amps than I'm ever likely to know. In this post modern world, the required humility to actually know that, and have the grace to ask for guidance, is at a premium. That I believe feeds into the miscreants business model. The internet does not a Vintage Marshall expert make. 

If I've ever got a question on Thames Ditton, believe me, I'd make a polite approach to your good self. 

The straight shooters are thorns in the sides of those with mischief in mind. 

Three-ColourSunburst

Thanks for the additional background everyone, but this is the comment that leaves me puzzled...

i can't believe how they get away with things. Stories about the secret chamber in the hiwatt 4x12's which were being shipped all over the world was horrifying enough