Jan 2007 Vintage Guitar article on fake Marshalls

IvisonGuitars

ourmaninthenorth said:

Bygone_Tones said:

I think the simple answer is that for every person that knows about them, there are thousands more who don't, or maybe think they have changed their ways. Just look at their facebook or instagram. Lots of love and people drooling over the gear, and no people accusing them of selling lashups. Changing the business name helps too. All the negativity is associated with 'music ground', and they are now 'hanks' or 'london vintage' or something like that.

That's a firm strike of head on nail. 

The London geezer, that you know too...Mr. M, has forgotten more about these amps than I'm ever likely to know. In this post modern world, the required humility to actually know that, and have the grace to ask for guidance, is at a premium. That I believe feeds into the miscreants business model. The internet does not a Vintage Marshall expert make. 

If I've ever got a question on Thames Ditton, believe me, I'd make a polite approach to your good self. 

The straight shooters are thorns in the sides of those with mischief in mind. 

I totally get this and wholeheartedly agree BUT how/why are the relevant authorities not pulling them up at every opportunity/with every sale of a dodgy guitar/amp when they are SO blatant about it??

Denmark Street Guitars currently has one of Waylon Jennings personal Telecasters for sale....yeah, chaps....course it is....

Bygone_Tones

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Thanks for the additional background everyone, but this is the comment that leaves me puzzled...

i can't believe how they get away with things. Stories about the secret chamber in the hiwatt 4x12's which were being shipped all over the world was horrifying enough

I dont know what that's all about. It implys they were into drug smuggling or something but its a new one to me. Could just be nonsense.

Ossyrocks

I good friend of mine once saw about a dozen fake Marshall head cabinets outside an amp makers premises. They had NOS levant, old parts, handles etc. They were outside in the sun, getting the odd kick around by people who walked past, to age them naturally. The best bit was that they had a big old fashioned chip shop salt shaker, full of "vintage dust", which they were using to shake some dust inside. These cabs were all destined for Music Ground.

They used to buy old TVM sound 50 watt PA heads as they had a full set of RS trannies just like the JTM's. I picked one up for £10 in a secondhand shop once and sold it for £400 just for the trannies.

There were two rolls of brown pinstripe, one went to Paul Goodhand-Tait and one went to Music Ground. Paul only sold it for restos, I bought some of it for a '67 strap handled 4x12. Music Ground however cultivated the notion that it was originally used in rare circumstances and made many lash ups using it.

Crooks indeed.
Rob.

ourmaninthenorth

miserneil said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Bygone_Tones said:

I think the simple answer is that for every person that knows about them, there are thousands more who don't, or maybe think they have changed their ways. Just look at their facebook or instagram. Lots of love and people drooling over the gear, and no people accusing them of selling lashups. Changing the business name helps too. All the negativity is associated with 'music ground', and they are now 'hanks' or 'london vintage' or something like that.

That's a firm strike of head on nail. 

The London geezer, that you know too...Mr. M, has forgotten more about these amps than I'm ever likely to know. In this post modern world, the required humility to actually know that, and have the grace to ask for guidance, is at a premium. That I believe feeds into the miscreants business model. The internet does not a Vintage Marshall expert make. 

If I've ever got a question on Thames Ditton, believe me, I'd make a polite approach to your good self. 

The straight shooters are thorns in the sides of those with mischief in mind. 

I totally get this and wholeheartedly agree BUT how/why are the relevant authorities not pulling them up at every opportunity/with every sale of a dodgy guitar/amp when they are SO blatant about it??

Denmark Street Guitars currently has one of Waylon Jennings personal Telecasters for sale....yeah, chaps....course it is....

I perceive that knowing something and pressure testing it in a court of law are often two different countries. The miscreants also know this - again I believe it's part of their business model. 

The blatant nature of it? I reckon they've told so many lies, for so long, that they actually believe their own narrative.

My own legal remedy is dead simple, the dog can't bite you if you're not in the same room.....

Bygone_Tones

Ossyrocks said:

There were two rolls of brown pinstripe, one went to Paul Goodhand-Tait and one went to Music Ground. Paul only sold it for restos, I bought some of it for a '67 strap handled 4x12. Music Ground however cultivated the notion that it was originally used in rare circumstances and made many lash ups using it.

Crooks indeed.
Rob.

Very interesting. How long ago was this? and out of interest where was the roll found? ie what was it originally destined for?

I was doing a deal with someone about 12 months ago and he told me his friend was a full-time employee of Justins. His job was to artificially age stuff. So apparently it is still happening.

Ossyrocks

I bought the pinstripe from Paul in around 2004, he had had it some time at that point. Apparently two original rolls were found in a warehouse, how they fought over it I don't know, but I think it was expensive. I paid £200 back then for just enough to do the cab. The tale of cab aging is probably from ten years ago too.

ICBM

The basic problem is that there are too many people who *want* to believe. A good friend of mine - who has finally learned his lesson now - once said "I know they're crooks, but they can get the good stuff". What he eventually learned is that they don't, they just make it. He got stung with a completely fake 60s Tele, but of course they gave him a "good deal" by allowing him to trade in a lot of stuff against it. All of which was genuine, of course...

For me personally, the combination of this sort of dishonesty which permeates the vintage market (even if usually to a slightly lesser degree than the Harrisons) and the ludicrous prices, has killed whatever interest I once had in old gear.

I'm just pleased I don't know any of these scum personally. "The Supreme Cunts Of Rock'n'Roll", as their logo (nearly) says...

IvisonGuitars

ICBM said:

For me personally, the combination of this sort of dishonesty which permeates the vintage market (even if usually to a slightly lesser degree than the Harrisons) and the ludicrous prices, has killed whatever interest I once had in old gear.

This is exactly the situation I find myself in now. I was a big advocate of vintage guitars and I genuinely appreciate them as works of art as well as great instruments but having seen recent activities by even the most 'trusted' dealers - vague descriptions, blatant mis-information, swapping parts out to make guitars '100% original', moving stock between themselves to imply a thriving market, asking premium prices for the most butchered of old dogs - I appreciate this has been happening for years but I believe it's more prevalent than ever given the declining market. Plus theres the constant fear of being 'had over' by the said dealers. Vintage guitars are not fun for me any more and as production/custom shop guitars get closer to vintage, that's the way i'm heading again I think.

impmann

TBH, a great deal of the vintage market (much like any retro-based notion) is based on a rose-tinted nostalgia for a time that didn't actually exist. Fact is, when you listen to the guys who started the whole craze they tell stories of owning this that and the other vintage guitar before *insert name of famous vintage guitar* came along and blew all the others away. The inconsistency was the only constant. Now, I'd agree that some vintage guitars are truly magnificent but the vast majority are *just old*.

Sadly the guitar media and certain other individuals (who have vested interests in the vintage market increasing in value) make great pains to tell you that you *need* a vintage guitar because these are "better".  And like sheep, folks believe the message and spend fortunes buying instruments that may or may not be what they purport to be... if the Harrisons are involved, its unlikely.

Some vintage guitars have been for sale for years - literally years, for decades in some cases. They pop up for sale in one vintage emporium and then another, and then another... For example: there is a white Shergold Double Neck that the Harrisons have had for at least six years, before that it spent at least 10 years being passed around the various London dealers. Its not a bad guitar its just massively overpriced. I've played it at least three times and its legit but all those years doing nothing hasn't done it any favours.

I'm not knocking those who buy vintage instruments - good luck to all of you and I truly hope you find what you are looking for. However, it is a minefield and I'm no longer convinced that its the only way to acheive tonal nirvana - sadly there's too much noise telling us that it is.

ourmaninthenorth

So much to agree with in the last two posts, that to comment in detail would be simple repetition. 

Thanks for expressing your views Neil and @impmann without the usual attendant hyperbole and hysteria. 

Skipped

miserneil said:

  Vintage guitars are not fun for me any more and as production/custom shop guitars get closer to vintage, that's the way i'm heading again I think.

IMO the dream is not quite dead yet.
The USA is full of unmolested golden era Gibson Jazz Boxes at great prices.
There is just one tiny problem. The PAFs were harvested a long time ago.
But why is that a problem? Great pickups that tick every box are not expensive and there are people reading this post who can supply them right now.
A jazz box worked for Steve Howe and Ted Nugent. If you cant be with the one you love......love the one you're with. Stephen Stills told me that.

If you like Les  Pauls....that is awkward. The only answer is to be patient, to figure out which 20 people you don't trust, and which one person you do trust 100%, and then deal with that person. Trapeze Gold Tops are still affordable to anyone that owns 3 Gibson CC models. Authentication is essential but the good news is that most fakers are not creating fake GTs with the flat/mistake neck angle. 
For the very nervous who wants a forensic examination, there is always a Conversion. (Removing the finish from a 50s GT and then being the first person since 1952 to look at the neck pocket is drastic but is absolutely the last word in authentication....and then provenance). George Gruhn cannot match that - he can only give an opinion.

ourmaninthenorth

Even George Gruhn's opinion is sometimes not worth the very paper it's written on. Full of plausible deniability.

 Didn't he authenticate that POS Explorer recently for sale for almost a million dollars ? - a guitar I've actually been in the presence of.  That is until wiser heads gave him a tap on the shoulder at a show..the attendant attempts to withdraw his authentication were made full use of by the wolves trying to flog it. It must have been excruciatingly embarrassing for him, after all, he's supposed to know what he's doing. 

I personally think there's piss in the well...having to be ultra careful what one says or what one does around these guitars, has certainly taken much of the joy out of it for me. 

IvisonGuitars

Skipped said:

miserneil said:

  Vintage guitars are not fun for me any more and as production/custom shop guitars get closer to vintage, that's the way i'm heading again I think.

IMO the dream is not quite dead yet.
The USA is full of unmolested golden era Gibson Jazz Boxes at great prices.
There is just one tiny problem. The PAFs were harvested a long time ago.
But why is that a problem? Great pickups that tick every box are not expensive and there are people reading this post who can supply them right now.
A jazz box worked for Steve Howe and Ted Nugent. If you cant be with the one you love......love the one you're with. Stephen Stills told me that.

If you like Les  Pauls....that is awkward. The only answer is to be patient, to figure out which 20 people you don't trust, and which one person you do trust 100%, and then deal with that person. Trapeze Gold Tops are still affordable to anyone that owns 3 Gibson CC models. Authentication is essential but the good news is that most fakers are not creating fake GTs with the flat/mistake neck angle. 
For the very nervous who wants a forensic examination, there is always a Conversion. (Removing the finish from a 50's GT and then being the first person since 1952 to look at the neck pocket is drastic but is absolutely the last word in authentication....and then provenance). George Gruhn cannot match that - he can only give an opinion.

That's certainly true to a point, having toured the US extensively and visited as many vintage guitar shops as possible along the way, I was immediately struck by how many great vintage guitars were available. I've thought for a long while that, compared to this, the UK does get the dog end of the vintage guitar market so it is even more of a challenge to pick out a good one.

Given that the new CITES regulations make getting a guitar from the US here a whole boatload more hassle for the seller, some US sellers I've spoken to refuse to sell outside the lower 48 currently. 

IMO the only way to truly satisfy yourself when buying is to research the guitar/amp you are buying to the nth degree - the info is readily available online including examples of good fakes - and trust your own judgement. 

Three-ColourSunburst

Re that Fake Britain programme, not only has it disappeared from YouTube, the BBC seems to have removed any mention of guitars from their description of that particular episode. All I could find was the subtitle file, from which I pulled the following transcript.

Welcome to a world where nothing is quite as it seems
Welcome to Fake Britain
Series 5. Episode 15. Fri 5 Dec 2014 09:15.

Today  on Fake Britain

The dodgy guitars that rock the music industry

“I’d been duped.”

“Clearly the guitar was a fake.”

Vintage guitars can be highly collectable and very valuable. This 1964 Fender Stratocaster is worth £16,000. That's cos it's 50 years old and the Stratocaster is the instrument of choice for nearly every famous rock star we've ever heard of. If a rock legend had owned this one  it would be worth £116,000.
       
The problem is telling the real from the fake in the world of vintage guitars  it's not easy. I mean  your guitar could be a Clapton but  then again it could just be clapped out.

 Not only do they look incredibly cool electric guitars from the 60s that legends like the Voodoo Child Jimi Hendrix played are now valuable as antiques or even works of art. One of Hendrix's sold recently for a quarter of a million pounds at auction. But now the fakers have worked this out and they know there are profits to be made in the vintage guitar market. As dealer David Pym discovered when he found a ’64 Stratocaster on sale online for £8,000.     

"I just thought it looked very tempting being a ’64 Stratocaster. It did have quite a lot of dings and dongs on the body but that doesn't really matter with some guitars. So it looked like a good item for me to purchase to marry into my existing stock of Stratocasters."

The ’64 Fender was being sold by a company with stores across the UK called Music Ground. Its owners  father and son duo  Rick and Justin Harrison had built up a successful multi-million-pound guitar empire from their base in Yorkshire. They'd rubbed shoulders with rock legends like Bryan Adams. David phoned Justin Harrison to find out more about the Fender he had up for sale. "He said it was a very good  honest guitar so I decided to go for it because it seemed like a good buy." But when the guitar arrived it didn't quite hit the right chord with its new owner.

"I wasn't really happy with it. It felt wrong to me in terms of the neck. The neck didn't suit the neck pocket correctly." David suspected that the neck on his vintage Fender was not an original part. It turned out his guitar and a number of others would soon be investigated by the authorities.

Vintage guitars worth one million euros had been stolen from a shop in Italy the previous year. And several of these eventually turned up in Music Ground's Leeds store. Detective Chris Lord was investigating this for West Yorkshire Police. It was an extremely long  protracted inquiry that spanned four-plus years ultimately. Inquiries soon lead Detective Chris Lord to David Pym's Fender that he'd bought from Music Ground. It was up the sale on David Pym's website but he'd failed to sell it when he told customers of his concerns about the neck. Police told David the shocking news that they believed it was stolen. "I handed over the guitar and that's the last time I saw it I'm afraid. I'd been duped and it's very upsetting." And David's initial suspicions about his guitar neck turned out to be well founded. Forensic imaging revealed it was taken from a second stolen guitar. This ’64 Fender was a cut and shut made up of two different instruments. The neck of the guitar is taken from one of the stolen 1964 Sea Foam Green Fender Stratocasters. If we look at the original photograph prior to the guitar being stolen these marks are exactly the same as the one we've recovered. The body of the guitar is taken from a 1966 Sunburst Fender Stratocaster. And the markings on the body tie up to the photograph of the stolen Fender Strat. Now  these markings are essentially like a fingerprint because these markings have naturally occurred over decades. So why have fakers created this instrument out of two stolen guitars? Purely to hide the identity and integrity of the original stolen guitar in a view of fraudulently passing this on to some innocent buyer. And the serial plate that uniquely identifies every Fender appeared to be false. The number couldn't be traced. This particular neck plate is clearly put there in a further attempt to hide the identity of this particular instrument.

The trail of this cut and shut fake started in Verona. The two stolen guitars were owned by Pierpaolo Adda and it was his store that was burgled with thieves making off with more than 150 instruments. "This is the window through which the thieves entered and steal my guitars. The best part of my collection. All guitars given to me by famous guitarists from all over the world." The two guitars used to make the cut and shut Pierpaolo believes were worth a total of £35,000. But the resulting instrument that was returned to him he estimates is now only worth a fifth of that.
 
"They have destroyed two beautiful guitars. They have created a Frankenstein monster." Pierpaolo uncovered more of his stolen guitars on the Music Ground website. This 1971 Les Paul Sunburst had also been subjected to fakery to hide its true identity. They're a fake serial number. The original one has been scratched. A new serial number has been embossed. But to expert eyes like Pierpaolo's the age of the finish reveals its dark secret. "If you look carefully there is a difference between this part  I mean the neck and the upper part - the peg end. This is opaque you can see because it is 40   years old. This is more shining because it's a newer finish - five years old probably." The Les Paul has since been returned to Pierpaolo. He estimates it was originally worth around £4,000, but after the fakers got their hands on it Pierpaolo believes the botched paintwork has halved its value.

"A guitar is a piece of art. How can you destroy it just to make money?"

Three-ColourSunburst

Part 2:

Although there's no evidence that Music Ground was involved in the theft or the fakery  this wasn't the first time that the company had been accused of selling fake guitars. Justin Harrison had offered Fender enthusiast Dave what was described as a 1964 Candy Apple Red Telecaster. "We agreed a purchase price of £17,000."  
  
Sounds a lot of money but it is quite a rare instrument. After paying up  it took over six months for Dave's Candy Apple Red Fender to arrive from Music Ground. Externally it looked fine. It looked to be what it was supposed to be. But when Dave dismantled his new vintage 1964 Fender to replace a small part  he was shocked by what he found. "It was fairly evident that when you actually stuck your nose into the small cavities that the paint there actually smelt of being new paint which  clearly for a guitar that was supposedly manufactured in 1964 shouldn't have been the case." So the Candy Apple Red finish that made Dave's Fender so rare was potentially fake. He had the guitar examined by two vintage experts David Pym was one of them. "I could smell the paint and that is fatal for a 1964 original finish. You wouldn't be able to smell the paint at all. It would have no smell other than just a mustiness. I did have a glance at the parts on it and I assumed that the whole thing was put together and manufactured to sell for a big profit."

The experts confirmed Dave's worst fears. Clearly the guitar was a fake. It was not original in any way  shape or form and it certainly appeared that it had been deliberately built to deceive. Armed with this evidence Dave went back to Justin Harrison at Music Ground. After Harrison dismantled his Fender he agreed it wasn't original and refunded Dave £17,000. Music Ground told us that they purchased the Fender Telecaster from a dealer in the United States. When it was discovered that it wasn't original they say they provided a full refund.            

Richard and Justin Harrison were eventually charged with handling stolen goods in relation to the guitar theft in Verona. At Leeds Crown Court  Richard Harrison pleaded guilty to one count of handling ten stolen guitars and received a  12 month suspended sentence. His son Justin pleaded guilty to two counts of handling a stolen guitar and received a six-month suspended sentence. Both men said in court that they were unaware that the guitars were stolen when they acquired them.

The danger is new  young people coming to the fore wanting to learn to play a guitar  wanting to copy their hero buying a guitar and not getting the right product. There haven't just been problems in the vintage market. Guitarist Magazine's resident expert David Burlock warns of modern fakes in circulation particularly on the internet.

"We've certainly heard of incidences where more contemporary instruments are being cloned  if you want. There's lots of these things  you know  coming from China and the problem simply comes when the consumer thinks they're buying a new Ibanez guitar or a new Gibson and it's made in a hurry in China. And of course once you've paid your money it's not always easy to get it back."  He has wise words for anyone thinking about buying an instrument. "I think it's exactly the same as buying a car  you know you don't just go to a garage and say  "I'll have that one”. You know, you research. Why would you buy a musical instrument without playing it? Be careful  do your homework  get a second opinion."

That's all from Fake Britain.  Goodbye.

Three-ColourSunburst

Not sure what's going on, as my posts above never appeared after posting first time around. I hope a load of duplicates don't suddenly appear!

Bygone_Tones

You did well to find the transcript of it. Like I said, no mention of amp fakery. They do repeat them in the mornings. It came on a few months ago, but when it's on next I dont know.

IvisonGuitars

Regarding the Italian theft, wasn't there new evidence to suggest that the owner of the guitars was in on it all along?? Or am I getting my Music Ground scams mixed up?? There are so many after all....

Ossyrocks

miserneil said:

Regarding the Italian theft, wasn't there new evidence to suggest that the owner of the guitars was in on it all along?? Or am I getting my Music Ground scams mixed up?? There are so many after all....

I heard that too, I think he's been charged. 

Three-ColourSunburst

Ossyrocks said:

miserneil said:

Regarding the Italian theft, wasn't there new evidence to suggest that the owner of the guitars was in on it all along?? Or am I getting my Music Ground scams mixed up?? There are so many after all....

I heard that too, I think he's been charged. 

Actually, according to the report below it looks as though Interpol and the Italian Police are looking to bring charges against the Harrisons for involvement in the original thefts. This report seems to say that proceedings were due to start in June last year.  Italian justice is notoriously slow so I don't know if the lack of news since then means anything. The proceedings against the Harrison's were opened in Verona in front of the the preliminary hearing judge (GUP) Raffaele Ferraro on 23rd September 2015. This hearing was  apparently limited to hearing the statement of an American collector whose stolen guitars were seen in the possession of an employee of the Harrisons. This collector had contacted Pierpaolo Adda about these thefts, and apparently one of the guitars was offered to Adda by e-mail. Pierpaolo Adda attended the preliminary hearing in a civilian capacity.

Note, I don't speak Italian, so had to use Google translate, which is often hard to interpret.

http://www.veronasera.it/cronaca/verona-furto-chitarre-collezione-musical-box-accusati-commercianti-inglesi-24-settembre-2015.html