Gig tempo and the drummers restraint

paulphoenix

Does anyone have any suggestions or tips/experience with the following that they might impart ?

how do you ensure that your songs are played at the right tempo at a gig?

I'm sure we can all get carried away with the buzz of gigging and start a song a tad quick - right?  and I don't mean just drummers here.

Well its happened a lot during the last few gigs with my band...and  it's not a matter of rehearsal as these are songs we've been gigging for 4 years now. 

I've spoken to the other guys and feel like a nagging wife keep telling them before a song to keep the pace down..

are there any other  fool proof methods out there? 


 

Winny_Pooh

Have the drummer play to a click

not_the_dj

@octatonic ;was using a gizmo of some sort at the forum jam today where he'd programmed in the bpm for each song to get him in tempo for the next one (it gave a few bleeps). What was that you used James?

Bridgehouse

not_the_dj said:

@octatonic ;;was using a gizmo of some sort at the forum jam today where he'd programmed in the bpm for each song to get him in tempo for the next one (it gave a few bleeps). What was that you used James?

That was a TAMA rhythm watch - Mrs B has one and it's fab.

octatonic

Yup, that was a Rhythm Watch- it is the industry standard.
I didn't program anything- I just had the tempi listed on a piece of paper and set it from song to song.

When I gig properly I turn the volume down on it and just use the flashing lights to get the tempo.
Today was a bit more informal so I let it be audible so everyone knew what the song's tempo would be.

paulphoenix

Thanks - I'd been thinking and looking for apps along those lines (flashing metronomes) but wasn't sure how to broach the subject with the drummer without causing offence? 

Danny1969

The flashing tempo is a good thing if the drummer sticks to it as it means you can do all kinds of things to make the band slicker. Vocal delay can be tap tempo ed, moving samples can be triggered, any guitar delays can be synced etc   .... it's one of the first things you notice when looking at a lot of today's live bands and how they re-create the records  ... it's a strict tempo so everything syncs up. 

octatonic

Danny1969 said:

The flashing tempo is a good thing if the drummer sticks to it as it means you can do all kinds of things to make the band slicker. Vocal delay can be tap tempo ed, moving samples can be triggered, any guitar delays can be synced etc   .... it's one of the first things you notice when looking at a lot of today's live bands and how they re-create the records  ... it's a strict tempo so everything syncs up. 

That is good in some circumstances but it also highlights that most records are recorded to a click these days.
I kinda miss the days when bands felt they could react to one another- those early Police records are amazing precisely because of the tempo changes.
Have a look at this graph of the tempo variation in 'So Lonely'.



I remember reading a 'making of' article for the Them Crooked Vultures album and it described how they didn't play to a click because all the guys could play as a group without requiring them.

My goals as a drummer are to be able to cue parts and keep a consistent tempo without being a slave to a click track.
I like using a Rhythm Watch because it is just a visual cue that I can, if need be, just ignore.
I got this idea from Rich Redmond, the Nashville session ace- he keeps the Rhythm Watch running for the whole song just to see how close his internal tempo is, rather than playing strictly to a click.
It allows him to move the tempo around based on what else is happening- to really listen to the other members and react- IMHO that is more important than having a delay be precisely in time.

Danny1969

Oddly I'm not a fan of recording to a click in the studio anymore as it was only a editing aid really, some of my favourite records rush ahead and slow down and rightly so ... 
Live though, a 3 piece band can sound like a 7 piece with some clever samples and the right tempo. It can make a real difference, especially to your wallet

Roland

I'm going to confess something here. Our drummer won't use a metronome to make sure he starts at the right tempo. Our current lighting rig has a tap tempo for the lights around the drum kit. I control that tempo from my pedal board, and have even been known to start them pulsing before he starts the intro. 

PolarityMan

So a bit of tempo pull I think is fine especially live, what I object to is when the way it is done is by coming in early for beat 1 after a fill which seems to be a common habit of our drummer.

The worst thing is he wont even recognise he does it so recording to a click is just less hassle even if its only as an argument settler (and of course the fact that I can edit dodgy stuff back into time).

guitarfishbay

PolarityMan said:

So a bit of tempo pull I think is fine especially live, what I object to is when the way it is done is by coming in early for beat 1 after a fill which seems to be a common habit of our drummer.

The worst thing is he wont even recognise he does it so recording to a click is just less hassle even if its only as an argument settler (and of course the fact that I can edit dodgy stuff back into time).

Do the fills sound good?

The tempo maps for my band's stuff have slight tempo bumps on many fills because that's what sounded better and then the steady tempo resumes after the fill. One of the choruses only sounded good with complete free push and pull, I just spaced the kicks more smoothly after.

This is why I like a printed click, you can mute it and automate it whenever necessary.

PolarityMan

Yeah the fills sound good. its jsut the 1 of the next bar is really often early. Its not even like the kick fits in the context of the fill either, ie/ a gradual speed up with the kick in the "right" place in context of the last say 3 or 4 sixteenths..its more like ..."killer fill, killer fill...fuck where did that kick come from?"

PolarityMan

Also early notes after fast notes are the worst for editing too as theres never enough tail to push it back far enough without getting creative.

guitarfishbay

Ok if the 1 is too early that's a problem, but in principle I don't really mind a song pushing and pulling at all.

If this pic works, this is a map for one of our songs to take account for fills and different sections.  It's a bit pointless without hearing the song, which isn't ready yet, but you get the idea

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

Also early notes after fast notes are the worst for editing too as theres never enough tail to push it back far enough without getting creative.

Are you a Protooler?
Beat Detective can usually fix this with edit smoothing.

AvalonAndy

PolarityMan said:

So a bit of tempo pull I think is fine especially live, what I object to is when the way it is done is by coming in early for beat 1 after a fill which seems to be a common habit of our drummer.

The worst thing is he wont even recognise he does it so recording to a click is just less hassle even if its only as an argument settler (and of course the fact that I can edit dodgy stuff back into time).

Wiz.  

This used to really irritate me about our drummer who recently left.  He was otherwise really good but just overstepped the mark with overly-long, over-elaborated fills which he couldn't keep up with.  Fills everywhere.  Man, it used to kill me.  He was 22 and I'm not sure if this is something that fades with age.  I know that when I was in my early twenties, I wanted to play all the time.  If I didn't have a riff to play, I'd strum the chords.  I think that it's only experience that teaches you that less is more and that you need to compliment the rest of the band as opposed to competing and mucking the whole thing up.

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

PolarityMan said:

Also early notes after fast notes are the worst for editing too as theres never enough tail to push it back far enough without getting creative.

Are you a Protooler?
Beat Detective can usually fix this with edit smoothing.

Reaper. ...although after the amount of editing done I wonder if I should also get pro tools.

octatonic

PolarityMan said:

octatonic said:

PolarityMan said:

Also early notes after fast notes are the worst for editing too as theres never enough tail to push it back far enough without getting creative.

Are you a Protooler?
Beat Detective can usually fix this with edit smoothing.

Reaper. ...although after the amount of editing done I wonder if I should also get pro tools.

PT is like a word processor for audio- you can do stuff in there you cannot do in any other DAW.
I actually dislike working in it most of the time- Logic is so much better for creating music, but for editing audio PT is unbeatable.

Danny1969

For "real" drum editing Protools is unbeatable, I wouldn't do it now but I used to use Beat Detective so much I got real quick at it and could make a pretty hopeless drummer sound spot on within a couple of hours. I'm sure you can do much the same in other DAWS but drum editing in PT is very quick and the fill \ smoothing is quite transparent 

octatonic

Danny1969 said:

For "real" drum editing Protools is unbeatable, I wouldn't do it now but I used to use Beat Detective so much I got real quick at it and could make a pretty hopeless drummer sound spot on within a couple of hours. I'm sure you can do much the same in other DAWS but drum editing in PT is very quick and the fill \ smoothing is quite transparent 

For me it is a case of being a last resort.

When I did an album with Darby Todd, for instance, I didn't time correct a single note because he was such an amazing drummer I just didn't need to.
Sure there were notes that didn't precisely align to the grid but the performances were so good that it wouldn't have made them sound better to have them conform.