The advantages of a nitro finish.

guitars4you

Gassage said:

guitars4you said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

One serious point- it's far more tactile on a neck than poly.

Is this just with mahogany necks? The maple necks on my Ibanez Prestige RG and Talman seem to have hardly any finish at all on the back of the neck, just being smooth and slightly satiny.

many modern built guitars now use a gunstock oil/wax blend and a hand rubbed finish to acquire that smooth played in vibe - This approach is now adopted by many and includes certain Ibanez models - EVH helped spread the gospel for this trend to capture the vibe of a played in old 'un - I think you find it more on maple necks but I have seen similar on mahogany as well

Mark

Any idea where one might get this? I have one guitar that's got no laquer whatsoever on the neck.

I assume you mean where can you acquire the gunstock oil and wax blend - If so I don't know - I dare say guys like Steve Robinson or Jon at Feline can help you on that - or indeed other luthiers/finishers

Three-ColourSunburst

crunchman said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

MartinB said:

 
You're waiting for someone to comment about tone, aren't you?  

After that other thread that's the last thing I want! I doubt anyone really takes the idea that finish affects tone seriously in any case!

Looks like you are trolling again.

Nope. As I said, no comment!

Let's keep things practical and quantifiable. As I posted earlier, I have just got a new guitar stand which came with a warning not to leave a nitro finished guitar on it for an extended period. This made owning a nitro finished guitar sound like a total pain in the backside and left me wondering why anyone would choose a guitar with such a finish.

Kalimna

My take on the finish-affects-tone thing is that, as mentioned above, a thin finish is important but much more so on an acoustic guitar. Also, a lot of this probably comes from the reverence with which old violin finishes are held. However, the form of the sound is quite different - a guitar is plucked (mostly), whereas a violin is bowed.

I have a Les Paul in nitro (89 Gibson), and it smells great. Feels great too. A little checking/crazing but it lives in its case when not being played.

Adam

crunchman

Three-ColourSunburst said:

crunchman said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

MartinB said:

 
You're waiting for someone to comment about tone, aren't you?  

After that other thread that's the last thing I want! I doubt anyone really takes the idea that finish affects tone seriously in any case!

Looks like you are trolling again.

Nope. As I said, no comment!

Let's keep things practical and quantifiable. As I posted earlier, I have just got a new guitar stand which came with a warning not to leave a nitro finished guitar on it for an extended period. This made owning a nitro finished guitar sound like a total pain in the backside and left me wondering why anyone would choose a guitar with such a finish.

There are a lot of guitar stands on the market that are ok with nitro.  Just get a decent one.

NelsonP

Aren't nitro finishes faster?

Three-ColourSunburst

lonestar said:

If you prefer a thick and protective surface then polyurethane is your answer. If you want a finish that is thinner than a strand of human hair, expands, contracts and wears with you then nitro is perfect. 

That's interesting. I hadn't realised just how thin a nitro finish is compared to a polyurethane one. Another question though. Why can't a polyurethane finish also be made thinner?

Thanks!

Gassage

@three-coloursunburst  ;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

guitars4you

Three-ColourSunburst said:

crunchman said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

MartinB said:

 
You're waiting for someone to comment about tone, aren't you?  

After that other thread that's the last thing I want! I doubt anyone really takes the idea that finish affects tone seriously in any case!

Looks like you are trolling again.

Nope. As I said, no comment!

Let's keep things practical and quantifiable. As I posted earlier, I have just got a new guitar stand which came with a warning not to leave a nitro finished guitar on it for an extended period. This made owning a nitro finished guitar sound like a total pain in the backside and left me wondering why anyone would choose a guitar with such a finish.

I don't know about all stands but Hercules do not mark nitro finishes - I generally only use Hercules stands and wall bracket holders in the store - If I use a A frame Q-Lok stand then I put a duster over the contact points as they are renowned for marking guitars, especially were the guitar leans against the back of the A frame stand towards the neck join - I think a few stands are also culprits for marking guitars but stick with Hercules IMO

equalsql

StuartMac290 said:

It looks better, it feels better, it sinks into the grain in a most appealing way, and it ages better. There's also an argument it sounds better.

This ^^ unless it's a Fender AVRI with a thick poly undercoat.

Corvus

Nitro is mostly known as cellulose over here. There's nothing illegal about it except regulations to do with solvent emissions by which it's meant to be used for particular purposes like restoration, I believe. This is the reason cars are now wearing waterbase colour underneath the "poly" (not poly) or two-pack or 2k clearcoat.

Guitars often have 1k acrylic colour layer under the 2k clearcoat. Or may be solid colour 2k. As ICBM says some of the much-loved schemes were 1k acrylic, not nitro, I think Oly White was another iirc

Nitro/celly is a thousand times safer to use than 2k which sets by catalytic reaction, the hardener contains isocyanates which can cause extreme reactions. I know of a few people who passed out, two woke up in A&E on respirators.
It sets in a few hours, getting slightly harder over the next few days. I like to flat & polish the day after paint because of that. By day three it's that much harder to do.

Nitro is far safer to use and touch-dries very fast which makes it DIY-friendly. Less bugs & dust to land in it.

Sound - I've refined guitars and played them before/after. Like a Tele that got primer (on top of factory sealer), ground coat, metalflake in clearcoat, candy clearcoat, and clear to flat/polish. Relatively a lot of paint, it sounded the same. A few grammes of paint on a solid 5lb slab aren't likely to make much difference imho, an acoustic with the thin panels is a different thing altogether.
Difficult thing to test, need new strings, other things like electrics must be unchanged etc, pickup heights, neck shims, everything. So far I haven't noticed anything significant anyway.

Paint varies as much as guitars do. There's plasticky 2k and more glassy-feeling 2k. Some is nice to spray, some is horrible, you can feel when mixing, pouring even, how it's going to be and so far this feel carries on to what it's like to flat & buff too.

Celly/nitro and 2k do feel different but they can look the same. Many variables, more than just 'what paint type'.

NelsonP

Oh - and this, again from the Fender website

The chief advantage of polyester is that it makes for a colorful and extremely tough, durable finish. Polyester guitar finishes age and weather especially well and are seemingly immune to climate and injury—they are highly resistant to scratching and checking, and colors remain remarkably pristine. Sonically, you get tones that are more purely those of the pickups rather than other elements of the instrument’s construction, which many players prefer.

<puts on coat>

JezWynd

Three-ColourSunburst said:

crunchman said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

MartinB said:

 
You're waiting for someone to comment about tone, aren't you?  

After that other thread that's the last thing I want! I doubt anyone really takes the idea that finish affects tone seriously in any case!

Looks like you are trolling again.

Nope. As I said, no comment!

Let's keep things practical and quantifiable. As I posted earlier, I have just got a new guitar stand which came with a warning not to leave a nitro finished guitar on it for an extended period. This made owning a nitro finished guitar sound like a total pain in the backside and left me wondering why anyone would choose a guitar with such a finish.

My new Snark tuner came with a warning that basically amounted to " don't attach this to any instrument with any type of finish". It's just manufacturers covering themselves. If you are worried, invest in a pair of (pure wool) socks and put them over the supports.

GoldenEraGuitars

Three-ColourSunburst said:

lonestar said:

If you prefer a thick and protective surface then polyurethane is your answer. If you want a finish that is thinner than a strand of human hair, expands, contracts and wears with you then nitro is perfect. 

That's interesting. I hadn't realised just how thin a nitro finish is compared to a polyurethane one. Another question though. Why can't a polyurethane finish also be made thinner?

Thanks!

Polyurethane was the answer to what was wrong with nitro. Nitro isn't durable. Leo Fender moved to polyester then Polyurethane. Polyurethane is a plastic finish, nitro is a solvent that continues gassing off for an unlimited time. Nitro basically hardens to within a few percent of being "solid" but it never fully solidifies. Hence why over time with hot and cold it checks as the wood moves.

guitars4you

lonestar said:

Hmmmm. I don't think I should get involved here (even though I'm currently spraying over 40 bodies and a dozen necks in nitro as well as 3 refinishes). But I will happily agree with @ICBM as to what fender call "nitro". I just stripped this Custom Shop Strat.

Apparently that's Dakota Red "nitro". Looks more like polyurethane to me (must be a lot of plasticiser in it!)

 https://i.imgur.com/pz2Itqp.jpg

just as a matter of interest - was that on a new shiny NOS finish or an aged relic finish - I understand the relic finish is thinner and led to believe some different 'make up' within the nitro

Babones

ICBM said:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "POLY".

Yes, I believe she wants a cracker.

MartinB

Gassage said:

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

I'm all for this sort of thing, just so long as we are honest about it being more about our relationship with the guitar than an innate property of the guitar itself.  But in a performing art like music these things can be important.  

Gassage

MartinB said:

Gassage said:

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

I'm all for this sort of thing, just so long as we are honest about it being more about our relationship with the guitar than an innate property of the guitar itself.  But in a performing art like music these things can be important.  

Agreed.

But equally there is the connectivity. Somehow an old nitro guitar feels like a comfy pair of shoes....

GoldenEraGuitars

guitars4you said:

lonestar said:

Hmmmm. I don't think I should get involved here (even though I'm currently spraying over 40 bodies and a dozen necks in nitro as well as 3 refinishes). But I will happily agree with @ICBM as to what fender call "nitro". I just stripped this Custom Shop Strat.

Apparently that's Dakota Red "nitro". Looks more like polyurethane to me (must be a lot of plasticiser in it!)

 https://i.imgur.com/pz2Itqp.jpg

just as a matter of interest - was that on a new shiny NOS finish or an aged relic finish - I understand the relic finish is thinner and led to believe some different 'make up' within the nitro

That, believe it or not, was a relic CS. It's stamped on the pocket and under the pickguard. I stripped one of my own nitro bodies (the test body) of its nitro.... it bubbled and melted off like cheese. Not to mention the CS absolutely stank when it burned up. Nearly totally plastic I'd say

GoldenEraGuitars

Heres a nitro ash strat...

https://i.imgur.com/ANqggVM.jpg


You can see and FEEL the grain. You don't get that with a plastic finish.

crunchman

Three-ColourSunburst said:

lonestar said:

If you prefer a thick and protective surface then polyurethane is your answer. If you want a finish that is thinner than a strand of human hair, expands, contracts and wears with you then nitro is perfect. 

That's interesting. I hadn't realised just how thin a nitro finish is compared to a polyurethane one. Another question though. Why can't a polyurethane finish also be made thinner?

Thanks!

Non-nitro finishes don't have to be be thick.  You have things like the PRS V12 finish which is meant to be very thin.  That was only introduced in 2010 so no-one knows what it will look like 20 years down the line though.