Do laminate guitars improve with age.

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proggyproggy Frets: 5827

A friend of mine has an old, all laminate, Washburn acoustic that he's owned for about 40 odd years or so and he told me recently that it's finally beginning to sound like a decent guitar. I joked that it was probably his playing that's finally started to improve. He insists that the guitar is improving with age.

I thought that acoustics improved in sound due to the wood opening up with years of playing. Surely this wouldn't apply to laminates with all those layers of glue! Would it?

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  • AlexCAlexC Frets: 2396
    What I'm about to say has no basis in any science, so shout me down by all means... There's still wood in the guitar, so I would think 'yes' it does improve with age. in my personal experience all guitars (electric and acoustic) 'develop' over time. Although I'm guessing a carbon fibre guitar probably doesn't.
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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    AlexC said:
    What I'm about to say has no basis in any science, so shout me down by all means... There's still wood in the guitar, so I would think 'yes' it does improve with age. in my personal experience all guitars (electric and acoustic) 'develop' over time. Although I'm guessing a carbon fibre guitar probably doesn't.

    Thinking about it, it probably does. I used to work in the building industry years ago and fondly remember how the sheets of plywood used to bend if left out in the rain or sun, plenty of movement.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    Yes, they do.

    It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    ICBM said:
    Yes, they do.

    It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

    @ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    edited November 2017
    theres wood involved  it'll lose gums and resins which decrease damping which will increase resonance also the fibers 'loosen up' and get used to vibrating - also depending what glues used some will become almost crystalline further reducing damping. Well made laminate guitars use just enough glue to adhere the layers of wood and not to be confused with typical 'ply wood'
    same things happen to solid wood guitars, I cant speak for Washburn but I've got an Yairi-Alvarez laminate b/sides just got noticeably better over 10 / 15 yrs after the soundboard (cedar) became played in over 3 or 4 years
    oh and there's more to guitar 'opening up' or 'playing in' than back sides and top - theres the neck, bridge + bracing system normally made of solid woods 
    and all become more resonant as described above.
    Think of the bridge / soundboard / bridge plate - thats a laminate, as is any other layered woods in the construction - the braces to soundboard and soundboard to linings etc.



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  • The suspension and cone in a speaker aren’t made of solid wood - but most people generally accept that a well-used one sounds different to one that’s straight out of the box.

    I can’t think of any logical reason why a laminate top won’t improve - at least to some extent - with age/use.
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  • FuengiFuengi Frets: 2849
    If it's kept in a house with central heating my guess is that guitar will take just a few months to dry out fully, not decades. 

    I work in architecture and even thick layers of timber don't take that long to dry out - the rule of thumb is one year per inch. Guitars have incredibly thin tops so most will have dried fully in the store. 

    The vibration thing I don't fully get, but seems to sell well. 
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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    There's drying out to the degree that there is no further change to macro properties (ability to bear load, deflection etc) and there's drying out to the degree that it affects smaller-scale properties like small changes in mass and stiffness in smaller sections.

    Add to that the fact that it's not all about drying, but about the composition of the glue and changes in the internal structure. 

    Knowing something's 2nd moment of inertia is different from knowing how it will vibrate in thin sections for small inputs. 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • The key is in the playing, the more it gets played more it loosens up and resonates more freely.
    my old Sigma is laminate back and sides but solid spruce top. The sound has changed drastically over the years. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    proggy said:
    ICBM said:
    Yes, they do.

    It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

    @ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.
    Not really - you were complimenting his playing. Now you've got to tell him "sorry mate, ICBM has confirmed you were right - it's your guitar that's improved, not your playing"!
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • the_mechanicthe_mechanic Frets: 9
    edited November 2017
    I thinks it's due to the loss of water.
    New guitars (even back in the days) are made with relatively fresh wood, which is treated in ovens to enhance exsiccation. This kind of process it's effective to shorten guitar production time but it isn't the best way to bring out the sound from them (at least the "cheaper ones").
    Of course the inner layers are glued, so that residual humidity takes a lot of time to "escape" the layer. Furthermore, on the exterior you have the gloss, which force the "evaporation" in just one direction, the inner side.
    And that's it, I think. In absence of residual humidity (or at least under a certain percentage) the wood tightens up and it's more resonant.

    Sorry for my bad english 3
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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    viz said:
    proggy said:
    ICBM said:
    Yes, they do.

    It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

    @ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.
    Not really - you were complimenting his playing. Now you've got to tell him "sorry mate, ICBM has confirmed you were right - it's your guitar that's improved, not your playing"!

    @viz I hadn't thought of that, nice one. I owe you a pint.
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Lol
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • I have an old Ibanez classical guitar that sounds great and is ply.  Of course I bought it when it was old so never got to try it any other way but it definitely sounds like a guitar with old worn in materials, even if they are ply.  Stands to reason the more something vibrates, the more it will loosen up to those vibrations.

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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827
    The suspension and cone in a speaker aren’t made of solid wood - but most people generally accept that a well-used one sounds different to one that’s straight out of the box.

    I can’t think of any logical reason why a laminate top won’t improve - at least to some extent - with age/use.


    @richardhomer Basically mate, I think it's probably down to me listening to the guitar shop jargon for all these years, telling me I'd be better off spending a bit more and getting the solid wood model as it will age better and the sound will improve, and all that sort of talk. 


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  • proggyproggy Frets: 5827


    I have an old Ibanez classical guitar that sounds great and is ply.  Of course I bought it when it was old so never got to try it any other way but it definitely sounds like a guitar with old worn in materials, even if they are ply.  Stands to reason the more something vibrates, the more it will loosen up to those vibrations.


    I also have an Aria dreadnaught which is all laminate, cost about £130. It also sounds really nice, but I don't know if it will improve with age and playing. Time will tell I suppose!
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12641
    About 12 years ago, I bought a Tanglewood small bodied acoustic for about £175 including a hard case. I bought it because it sounded superb for the money. Since then I'm fairly sure its got better with age - I doubt it'll ever sound like a 1940s Martin but its a nice sounding guitar that I'd be reluctant to ever part with. And it has changed in sound slightly - and imho for the better. That guitar surprised me when I realised that the top was laminate - I discovered that a year after purchase!


    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • TimmyOTimmyO Frets: 7349
    I’m 46

    In the 20 years I’ve owned my laminate back and sides dread im guessing it’s likely that my hearing has changed as much as the guitars 
    Red ones are better. 
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  • ExorcistExorcist Frets: 604
    I've got an old cats eyes, and I'm pretty sure the top is laminate, I rarely pick it up as I have a faith that is the 'better' guitar, However, I picked it up the other day, and played it, and was astounded at how good it sounded. I picked up the Faith immediately and that still sounded great, but the 'cats eyes' sounded much better than I remember, and was not the inferior guitar, just a different but very full tone. 
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  • AliGorieAliGorie Frets: 308
    I thinks it's due to the loss of water.
    New guitars (even back in the days) are made with relatively fresh wood,

    So - no lignin, resin or gums in the wood you use.
    These take much longer and / or higher temperatures to become completely 'dry' and crystalline.
    Traditional Spanish luthiers kept their stash' in the loft space of their workshop - under the tiled roof with the Mediterranean sun beating down and now individual builders bake their wood in domestic ovens to speed up this process, it apply's both to hardwood and softwood.
    Traditionally violin makers wont use wood that hasn't been 'seasoned' for a minimum of 10 years for this very reason.




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