Pedal Switcher Question - eg, Boss ES models

smudge_lad

Always swithering about getting hold of a pedal switcher such as the Boss ES-5 etc to save on a bit of tap dancing, but I'm having a brain-fart moment right now about how this would work with pedals in my amp fx loop.

I always run my delay/reverb in my fx loop of my JVM, which suggest that I can't also then have them connected to one of the dedicated loops on a switcher/looper

 I could still have my delay connected to the looper via midi to account for patch changes, but to actually add the delay pedal into the signal chain, this would need to be covered by a signal to my amp to turn the FX loop "on"

For any non-MIDI pedals in the FX loop, I'd need to turn them on manually, completely bypassing the looper.

Is this correct?

english_bob

Alternatively, use one of the loops on the ES-5 for the preamp section of your amp:

ES5 loop send -> amp input -> FX loop send -> ES5 loop return.

Then send the main output of the ES-5 to any MIDI controlled pedals in your effects loop before routing them back to the FX return of your amp. 

This leaves you with only four loops for effects, and means you don't have all the options for order switching that you'd have if everything was in the ES-5's loops (eg, if your reverb is in an ES-5 loop and your delay is after the ES-5 you can't have them in what most people would consider the "right" order), but it might be closer to what you want.

FWIW, the DD-500 (which you have, I think...) can accept MIDI commands for patch changes, and separate ones to turn the effect on or off, and you can program the ES-5 to send these at different times, or from different triggers.

smudge_lad

@english_bob - thanks for that info, wasn't aware I could do that.

So if I set up in that way, and I used loop 1, would that then mean that in each preset/patch I created I'd need to have loop 1 active?

How would this then work if I had compressor/overdrive in loop 2 that I wanted in front of my amp, since the loop w/delay is going into my amp input?  Would this mean that the loop with the delay/fx loop would need to come after any other loop that contained a pedal for the front of my amp?

My reverb hasn't got MIDI so I think I'm always going to lose a wee bit of flexibility when trying to incorporate the FX loop

english_bob

Yes, assuming you wanted to hear your amp normally you'd need to keep loop 1 active in all your patches.

The ES-x switchers let you assign the loop order per patch, so you could use loop 1 for the JVM's preamp and loop 2 for your compressor, you'd just set up that patch so that loop 1 was later in the order.

Having stalked you in the "show me your pedalboard" thread , here's how your whole setup would look like, in my mind:

Guitar -> ES-5 input -> Loop 1 (drives?) -> Loop 2 (more drives?) -> Loop 3 (comp?) Loop 4 (to amp input, from FX send) -> Loop 5 (Flint) -> ES-5 output -> Ocean Machine -> FX return

So delay would always be at the end of the chain, and you'd be able to stack drives and add or subtract compression separately. This would give you the most logical order for most scenarios, but it wouldn't preclude setting up a patch where the Flint was right at the start of the chain if you wanted that soundscapey reverb -> dirt sound. 

smudge_lad

So, the pro's and con's of this setup are:

Pro: The Flint would be in it's own loop, as opposed to having Flint and Ocean Machine in the amp loop, giving me more control over the placement of the reverb in the chain and using the ES to activate the pedal without having to stomp on it directly

Con: The Flint is not in my FX Loop, where I would ideally want to have it (not so much of an issue if I am still using the Ocean Machine which also has a reverb I could use in the FX loop, but I also use two Tremolo settings - and also have a DD500 to potentially replace the Mooer, which means no verb in the FX Loop at all)

My original thoughts on setup would have been:

Guitar -> Wah -> ES-5 -> Loop 1(drive 1) -> Loop 2 (drive 2) -> Loop 3 (fuzz) -> Loop 4 (comp) -> Loop 5 -> (currently free) -> ES-5 out -> amp

FX Loop: Ocean Machine -> Flint (activating FX Loop via MIDI)

Pro: not using a Loop for JVM preamp, allowing for additional pedal to be added

Con: No loop to control Flint independently, so would need to manually activate Flint and FX Loop separately

Have I got this right?

english_bob

smudge_lad said:

So, the pro's and con's of this setup are:

Pro: The Flint would be in it's own loop, as opposed to having Flint and Ocean Machine in the amp loop, giving me more control over the placement of the reverb in the chain and using the ES to activate the pedal without having to stomp on it directly

Con: The Flint is not in my FX Loop, where I would ideally want to have it (not so much of an issue if I am still using the Ocean Machine which also has a reverb I could use in the FX loop, but I also use two Tremolo settings - and also have a DD500 to potentially replace the Mooer, which means no verb in the FX Loop at all)

My original thoughts on setup would have been:

Guitar -> Wah -> ES-5 -> Loop 1(drive 1) -> Loop 2 (drive 2) -> Loop 3 (fuzz) -> Loop 4 (comp) -> Loop 5 -> (currently free) -> ES-5 out -> amp

FX Loop: Ocean Machine -> Flint (activating FX Loop via MIDI)

Pro: not using a Loop for JVM preamp, allowing for additional pedal to be added

Con: No loop to control Flint independently, so would need to manually activate Flint and FX Loop separately

Have I got this right?

The Flint would be in the effects loop in the setup I suggested- basically, anything you put after loop 4 in my setup will be in your effects loop (so in standard sequence, just loop 5, but you can re-order them if you want to)

smudge_lad

Ah ok, so could I not put the Ocean Machine in Loop 5, then have ES-5 output ->Flint ->FX Return so that the Flint is running last in my overall chain/after Ocean Machine?

english_bob

Sure. That would get your effects back in to the "right" order, but you'd be left switching the Flint manually and using an ES-5 loop for a pedal you could turn on and off via MIDI...

IMO, unless there are specific features of the ES-5 that you want and can't get elsewhere it might be worth considering something else with more loops, or with a dedicated always-on effects loop... loop. I get the impression that when choosing a switcher you kinda have to know what you need it to do, then buy the product that fits the description rather than the other way round...

smudge_lad

Ah, got it (I think, ha ha!)

The ES-5 was just an example, I'd much prefer the ES-8 but not sure if it's a bit big.

I know my board isn't overly complicated, and has always worked fine without a switcher and the fact I use my amp gain as opposed to only OD pedals kinda suggests that a switcher is maybe just an extra expense that's really only saving me a tiny wee bit of tap-dancing, and not worth the money I'd need to fork out for the switcher and extra cables

smudge_lad

Just read that the ES-8 has a separate volume loop that can be used to connect pedals into my fx loop, while leaving them in their own loop on the switcher....

https://www.boss.info/us/promos/es-8_deep_dive/#a3

colourofsound

Consider the Musicom Lab stuff - I have the EFX LE. It's not as fancy as the Boss units but will do what you're describing here. The EFX LE has 6 loops as well as a separate Volume Loop

smudge_lad

colourofsound said:

Consider the Musicom Lab stuff - I have the EFX LE. It's not as fancy as the Boss units but will do what you're describing here. The EFX LE has 6 loops as well as a separate Volume Loop

Before the Boss units, the Musicomlab stuff was what I'd always considered. I'll have another look at the newer one's

english_bob

One of the big things the Boss loopers do that very few others do is the flexible loop order. If that's not a big deal to you the market is much wider.

TheBigDipper

Harley Benton (Thomann) does a clone of the Joyo 8 loop controller. What might suit you is that loops 1 to 4 end up with an output socket you could use to send the signal into the guitar input on your amp. Then, the FX send from the amp goes into loops 5 to 8 and finally an output socket to send that to your FX return. It also has a couple of ctrl  switches for changing amp channels, etc. and you can send MIDI commands with each patch. 

It's cheap. This might be a way of getting in the game whilst you work out how to buy a GigRig G2!  

hotpickups

I agree with the above about the Musicom Lab stuff. I was going to go for it but I really couldn't do it as the lack of english speaking youtube videos / tutorials available. I went for a Disaster Area set up instead which I used for about 5 years but now I use a Boss ES 5. Does all I'd ever need

smudge_lad

english_bob said:

One of the big things the Boss loopers do that very few others do is the flexible loop order. If that's not a big deal to you the market is much wider.

You can do this with the EFX LE has the volume loop, which makes it appealing due to the size compared to the ES-8. Two less loops, but I don't really need 8 although would be handy to have a couple spare for any extra pedals that may come my way.

hotpickups said:

I agree with the above about the Musicom Lab stuff. I was going to go for it but I really couldn't do it as the lack of english speaking youtube videos / tutorials available. I went for a Disaster Area set up instead which I used for about 5 years but now I use a Boss ES 5. Does all I'd ever need

Yes, it is very annoying that there's not any/very many decent demo's

colourofsound

smudge_lad said:

english_bob said:

One of the big things the Boss loopers do that very few others do is the flexible loop order. If that's not a big deal to you the market is much wider.

You can do this with the EFX LE has the volume loop, which makes it appealing due to the size compared to the ES-8. Two less loops, but I don't really need 8 although would be handy to have a couple spare for any extra pedals that may come my way.

hotpickups said:

I agree with the above about the Musicom Lab stuff. I was going to go for it but I really couldn't do it as the lack of english speaking youtube videos / tutorials available. I went for a Disaster Area set up instead which I used for about 5 years but now I use a Boss ES 5. Does all I'd ever need

Yes, it is very annoying that there's not any/very many decent demo's

I've had a good experience with mine. There is a lack of polish for sure but the support is very good and I've had email back-and-forths with their support in Korea and their English is excellent.

I replaced my ES-5 with the Musicom unit and have been meaning to do a write-up in the review section.

smudge_lad

@colourofsound - what was the reason for replacing the ES-5, if I may ask?

colourofsound

smudge_lad said:

@colourofsound - what was the reason for replacing the ES-5, if I may ask?

the Musicom basically has two extra loops (a 6th loops plus a volume loop) as well as two of those loops being stereo, and it supports stereo out/4CM/Wet dry.

So whilst the Boss has loads of fancy internal expression mode features, it lacks these pretty standard features which I thought might be more useful in the future.

The only thing I miss from the Boss is the tap tempo subdivisions and momentary switching of patches. the Musicom lacks these; but could add them in future updates.

smudge_lad

@colourofsound Thanks for the info. Agree that these basic things would definitely be missed from the ES-5 by the sounds of things. So annoying that there's no good demo's to check out.

However, still firmly on my radar now since these functions you mentioned are something I would definitely need/use.

smudge_lad

@english_bob @colourofsound ;

Next question (sorry guys, totally appreciate your help and info on this)

So, I get things set up as you guys have suggested, with my delay/verb running in its own “volume loop” into my FX loop.

sometimes at rehearsal I’ll not have my own amp, and the amp there has no Fx Loop.  Is it possible to have another patch/bank set up where everything is going into the front of the amp?

Would I just basically bypass the volume loop completely in the patch?