Why was Tab not developed further?

Philtre

Personally, I don't like tab. I find it doesn't convey enough information. Much prefer this:

BRISTOL86

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

shhhh guys, don't speak too loudly or you'll wake the OP. He's been asleep for 40 years and not realised that most tab books do that. 

You may be right but there is not much of that kind of info on online tabs or even tabs in guitar mags (remember them?)

I’m guessing in the case of online tabs - they are normally generated from within the players community and thus it’s assumed that if you go looking for the tab, you’re already familiar with the song. 

BRISTOL86

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Emp_Fab said:

TheBigDipper said:

Music notation tells you the note, suggests which finger to use (both hands)

How ? I didn't know that.

For me, I struggle with the idea that notation is the pinnacle of written musical interfaces anymore than any particular spoken language is the perfect means of communication.  When I'm learning something, the primary information I need is which string, which fret.  Notation doesn't tell me that directly.  It tells me which note to play, so my brain now has to perform several functions on the fly - which note does that blob on the paper represent, then which string & fret combinations provide that note, before I can play it.  I don't need to know what the note is called - that information is superfluous to me - I just need to know where on the fretboard I can play it.  Tab gives me that information more directly - although I will concede that standard tab doesn't provide rhythm or duration data.

There must be a better way to convey musical note sequences to musicians than the ancient and unchanged method of notation.

the "ancient and unchanged method of notation" works. That's why people use it. Except that is HAS changed by evolving since the first monk wrote down chants, to be what it is now.

In proper notation, a number in a circle is a string number. A roman numeral is a fret number. A small bold digit next to a note head suggests a fretting hand finger. p i m a tell you which plucking hand digits to use.

There's no good reason apart from laziness and mental incompetence for people who call themselves musicians to not be able to read or write the standard language of music. Try holding down your day job without being able to read or write English. The reason you can read/write English is because you've done it every day since you were 6. If you read music in similar manner it would be second nature.

I understand this viewpoint, but to a beginner guitarist who is already familiar with a piece of music they want to play...if they can be playing it within 5 minutes thanks to the tab - combined with their own aural knowledge of the song, ie the nuances of the rhythm - or 5 years once they’ve taken the time to learn to read traditional notated music....then it’s served it’s purpose. 

There’s a great many times where proper music notation is much better for the task at hand than tab. And that’s great. But tab definitely has its place and not just for people who ‘cant be bothered’ to learn how to read music. 

As a wider point, ‘we’ve always done it that way’ is rarely a good argument for doing something in an illogical way. 

Phil_aka_Pip

BRISTOL86 said:

As a wider point, ‘we’ve always done it that way’ is rarely a good argument for doing something in an illogical way. 

but we haven't ' always done it that way’. The notation has changed a lot over the last 1000 years, to express things that either couldn't be expressed in the original notation, or to make the notation clearer

BRISTOL86

Phil_aka_Pip said:

BRISTOL86 said:

As a wider point, ‘we’ve always done it that way’ is rarely a good argument for doing something in an illogical way. 

but we haven't ' always done it that way’. The notation has changed a lot over the last 1000 years, to express things that either couldn't be expressed in the original notation, or to make the notation clearer

Yes, fair point. I’m not dismissing the relevance of standard notation, just saying that tab absolutely has merit and not just for the lazy! 

scrumhalf

It seems to me that tab is good for learning music that you've heard and know whilst standard notation is good for music you don't know.

Phil_aka_Pip

@BRISTOL86 OK mate, but I can't read tab! neither can pianists, violinists, saxophonists or anyone else. Notation is universal

BigLicks67

This is why guitarists are dismissed as non musicians, by other instrument players.

BRISTOL86

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@BRISTOL86 OK mate, but I can't read tab! neither can pianists, violinists, saxophonists or anyone else. Notation is universal

Absolutely, and in cases where I want to perform with a violinist then clearly the two of us having a solid understanding of notation would be very much a good thing!

When I’m sat at home wanting to know how to play a riff I heard on the radio and be playing it two minutes later....it’s hard to beat tab....assuming it’s correct  

BigLicks67

BRISTOL86 said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@BRISTOL86 OK mate, but I can't read tab! neither can pianists, violinists, saxophonists or anyone else. Notation is universal

Absolutely, and in cases where I want to perform with a violinist then clearly the two of us having a solid understanding of notation would be very much a good thing!

When I’m sat at home wanting to know how to play a riff I heard on the radio and be playing it two minutes later....it’s hard to beat tab....assuming it’s correct  

Look at it from a different angle, if you play by notation then you are learning the notes on the fretboard and the notes that make chords. From tab you are learning positions & patterns, thus when most guitarists improvise they fall into the same patterns, whereas a saxophonist would be thinking in terms of notes applicable to the chords/key changes he is playing over and if you combine this with a good ear then you have a good improvisor. 

BRISTOL86

BigLicks67 said:

BRISTOL86 said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@BRISTOL86 OK mate, but I can't read tab! neither can pianists, violinists, saxophonists or anyone else. Notation is universal

Absolutely, and in cases where I want to perform with a violinist then clearly the two of us having a solid understanding of notation would be very much a good thing!

When I’m sat at home wanting to know how to play a riff I heard on the radio and be playing it two minutes later....it’s hard to beat tab....assuming it’s correct  

Look at it from a different angle, if you play by notation then you are learning the notes on the fretboard and the notes that make chords. From tab you are learning positions & patterns, thus when most guitarists improvise they fall into the same patterns, whereas a saxophonist would be thinking in terms of notes applicable to the chords/key changes he is playing over and if you combine this with a good ear then you have a good improvisor. 

Absolutely. I’m not advocating not ever learning to read standard notation, just that I think sometimes tab gets sneered at by the ‘purist’ player when it does actually serve a purpose, its just a limited one.

BigMonka

Part of the reason for most tab not including any additional info (like the timings included in example 3 of the previous image) is that the main way tabs are shared is online and so needs to be able to be typed without any special characters.

aord43

They each have their own reason to exist.  Obviously (?) standard notation is just that, universal standard notation understood by all musicians.  However the guitar is one of a subset of instruments that has more than one way to play the same note.  If you see a particular note in music notation, that also tells you which piano key to play it on.  But on a guitar there is usually more than one place to play it.  Tab helps you here.  Someone above said that standard notation can have a string and a fret information but I don't recall ever seeing that.
Conversely, tab is very convenient and quick and easy to learn (and I get the impression that there is a small amount of snobbery, not necessarily amongst those here, about this from those who don't approve of it) but there is a lot of stuff it doesn't have, most importantly the rhythm, note lengths and so on.
I understand music notation but I am not a "sight reader".  But I appreciate the information it gives and for this reason I like to have both.  If you are given tab alone you really need to hear it or be familiar with the song.  But if you are given the standard notation too you can figure that out for yourself.  Someone above said that tab is for music you know and standard notation is for music you don't know.  I agree, although tab can be useful for those things you don't know to tell you where to play it on the fretboard.

TheBigDipper

BRISTOL86 said:

<big snip>

Absolutely. I’m not advocating not ever learning to read standard notation, just that I think sometimes tab gets sneered at by the ‘purist’ player when it does actually serve a purpose, its just a limited one.

This. Tab does a job - and for many guitarists, it's all they need or want. I started learning to read music aged 8 or 9. Classical guitar, I learned "Twinkle twinkle, little star" and the teacher made me learn how the notation worked at the same time. As I progressed, my knowledge of notation progressed - that and playing were taught in tandem. 

Over the past 20+ years I've mainly read other peoples tab and almost never written down any notation, just read other peoples. If I've wanted to write a part down for myself, once I've worked out the part I tend to use tab as an aide memoir as I commit it to memory. 

But I can do both (bully for me) so I have a choice. Violinists don't. Nor do most guitarists.

Phil_aka_Pip

A violin can play the same note in several different places. A violinist knows the instrument well enough to decide on the best position to play the music in. Guitarists should be no different.

VimFuego

aord43 said:

They each have their own reason to exist.  Obviously (?) standard notation is just that, universal standard notation understood by all musicians.  However the guitar is one of a subset of instruments that has more than one way to play the same note.  If you see a particular note in music notation, that also tells you which piano key to play it on.  But on a guitar there is usually more than one place to play it.  Tab helps you here.  Someone above said that standard notation can have a string and a fret information but I don't recall ever seeing that.
Conversely, tab is very convenient and quick and easy to learn (and I get the impression that there is a small amount of snobbery, not necessarily amongst those here, about this from those who don't approve of it) but there is a lot of stuff it doesn't have, most importantly the rhythm, note lengths and so on.
I understand music notation but I am not a "sight reader".  But I appreciate the information it gives and for this reason I like to have both.  If you are given tab alone you really need to hear it or be familiar with the song.  But if you are given the standard notation too you can figure that out for yourself.  Someone above said that tab is for music you know and standard notation is for music you don't know.  I agree, although tab can be useful for those things you don't know to tell you where to play it on the fretboard.

just want to discuss the bolded bit, this is true of any stringed instrument. What you will see on fiddle notation sometimes is a number after a unison note, which tells you to play a fingered note rather than the open note. 

ESBlonde

The advantage of stave notation is that any competent musician can reproduce the part.

Lets consider TOTP in it's heyday. The MU insisted on a live band and so video tape was the rarity unless a big star was No 1 and otherwise indisposed. So an American singer would fly across the pond with a file full of scores and at the BBC TOTP studios a bunch of fat balding talent (some of the blokes were dire looking too) would reproduce a hit single live that had taken days to produce in the original recording. Revisit some of those TOTP performances with a solo singer on stage and then listen to the single. Thats the power of musical notation.
I've heard first hand tales of these BBC session guys with the Telegraph/sun on one side of the music stand and the score on the owther. They could read from one to the other seemingly without difficulty. The Musical Director would count them in, they'd play, back to the newspaper until the next call.
I remember when I started gigging clubs in a covers band and the evenings Caberet turn would hand out sheet music for accompanyment (this still happened regularly in the 70s). I was buggered without a chord sheet and had to follow the keyboard player and listen for the changes while the turn battled on in spite of me. Since those days there have been fewer instances where as a guitarist being a reader would have helped, but also I wasn't offered the working situations where being a reader would have earned me money and respect (like it did for others). It's also probable that my playing suffered because of it and still does.
I'm a huge fan of the late Tommy Tedesco, legendary session guitarist who was alleged to be such a good sight reader he could read fly s#it. Tommy tells stories of being a poker player but also approaching his playing like that. Others would struggle with a complex piece and swear/bluster/apologise everytime they got something wrong. Tommy would bluff it and stay straight faced, by the time the orchestra had done 3 run throughs he had it down well enough and anyway he ensured the timing was as written and if some incidental notes weren't in there it went unnoticed by almost everyone, I think TT said he was picked up on it twice in his extensive succesful career. It is worth noting that Tommy is probably to this day the most recorded guitarist ever and he didn't take guitar seriously until in his mid 20s when he decided to stop working in an aircraft factory warehouse and learn the instrument and musical notation.

I should say 'I can't sight read' very well at all, but give me the part to take it away and come back tomorrow to play it for you (probably, but my playing styles are a bit limited). Conversly back in the day a single would be released hang about the chart for a couple of months and fade before a score was ever published, so being able to listen to and record Radio Luxombourg chart Sunday eve and learn the latest hits by ear was a skill very useful to me. But unless you are only ever going to play one small genre of music until it goes out of fashion, then the skill is worth aquiring imho. It opens doors to oportunities in life that you might not have envisioned so looking back I regret not having learned at an early age. I might still do it when I'm retired in a few years.

VimFuego

be interesting to know how modern guitar (e.g. non classical, so pop, jazz etc.) is taught at places like BIMM. Do they rely on TAB or notation? I can't imagine any other instrument being taught at a high, uni level and not being able to read notation. 

Neill

The great thing about tablature is it makes the guitar accessible to people who have little or no musical background.  One band I was in involved me tabbing out all the lines for the bass player - I could have written it in notation but he wouldn't have had the first idea how to play it.  

Music is supposed to be fun, for most people anyway, and because the electric guitar is such a seductive thing there just has to be a quick and easy way to get the message across. 

But I don't think there's an argument for developing tab, if you get to the stage where you feel you need to move on then it's time to put in some work and learn the common language that other musicians use.

I wish I had kept up with my sight reading, it's all very well to cite Paul McCartney, Johnny Marr, and many others as examples of successful musicians who never learned to read notation, but these are all people with a rare natural intuitive talent.  The rest of us have to work at it. 

p90fool

Rocker said:

As I understand it, Tab has been used for a very long time. Back to when lutes were the Les Pauls of the day. So why not add rhythm/timing notes and bars to the tab script? Most tabs assume that you know or are familiar with the song. If not, it is a jumble of finger positions that mean nothing. It would be really useful with just a little extra...

As an ex-lutenist, I still have loads of early tablature which does contain timing information, it just looks a little clumsy. 

You're right to say it hasn't developed, it's actually regressed, but as others have stated, it's used for very different purposes these days. 

I and fellow lutenists used to share music which was almost exclusively written in tab and which we'd never heard before, it does work.