Alternate ..sweep ..legato ect..

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Whats everybody using ...i know it dependson what we want to achieve soundwise ect ..but whats everbodies prefered way around the fretboard..maybe ..scales arps ect and what are the pit falls of each ...i have my own thoughts on this but would like to hear how others approach and the good and bad of them 
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  • Alternate mostly, with either a hammer on or pull off to ensure the last pick stroke is a downstroke  before I change strings.  

    I dont think about scales, unless I’m in pentatonic mode, just what notes are in the chord im playing over. 
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  • sweepysweepy Frets: 1283
    edited December 2017
    It depends what I’m after, my default is alternate picking on shorter bursts and a more legato approach to sneakier bits. This probably stems from listening to too much Al DiMeola and Allan Holdsworth in my early mad years
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  • Is the question about ways of creating the notes (e.g. picking, legato etc) or about fretboard visualisation (e.g. seeing/hearing patterns/shapes, scales etc)?
    It's not a competition
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 3226
    I pretty much hybrid pick everything with a pick and one or two fingers now. It's such a great technique when parts call for jumping over strings or there's very fast banjo rolls. I honestly think hybrid picking should be taught from day one, it really is the most efficient way to play and you get the best of both finger and pick tone. 

    To give the most impression of speed I tend to use a little trick that's 3 very fast picked notes on one string and then 3 legato notes on the next one. Even after years of trying I still don't have a very good consistent picking speed
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    Is the question about ways of creating the notes (e.g. picking, legato etc) or about fretboard visualisation (e.g. seeing/hearing patterns/shapes, scales etc)?
    More about right hand picking and most economical ways..there are pit falls in them all in my opinion apart from alternate which is the hardest to master as well I think..
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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 632
    edited December 2017
    Barney said:
    Is the question about ways of creating the notes (e.g. picking, legato etc) or about fretboard visualisation (e.g. seeing/hearing patterns/shapes, scales etc)?
    More about right hand picking and most economical ways..there are pit falls in them all in my opinion apart from alternate which is the hardest to master as well I think..
    OK. I understand now. Sorry for being a bit slow.

    I mainly use alternate picking mixed in with hammer-ons and pull-offs, when I want rhythmically controlled lines.
    I occasionally throw in a bit of hybrid picking.

    I also use extended legato, which comes fairly naturally because I'm left handed but play right handed. However, I tend to float over the beat and land phrases on targeted beats with that technique - the rhythmic equivalent of "falling down stairs and landing on my feet". I'm currently working through a Tom Quayle instructional video to try to improve my ability to apply more precise rhythmic control with legato.

    I only use economy picking for that EJ/JB double downstroke thing. Apart from that I struggle with economy picking.
    I occasionally use sweep picking (not very well) but I struggle with maintaining precise rhythmic control.

    It's not a competition
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    Danny1969 said:
    I pretty much hybrid pick everything with a pick and one or two fingers now. It's such a great technique when parts call for jumping over strings or there's very fast banjo rolls. I honestly think hybrid picking should be taught from day one, it really is the most efficient way to play and you get the best of both finger and pick tone. 

    To give the most impression of speed I tend to use a little trick that's 3 very fast picked notes on one string and then 3 legato notes on the next one. Even after years of trying I still don't have a very good consistent picking speed

    I have been using Hybrid quite a bit lately and find I get more control than economy timing wise and control over what want to instead of what the technique dictates to me in order to flow ..but still I feel as though alternate will give me more control than any other to technique apart from the speed aspect ...especially legato which I have done in my playing mostly over the years ...but again it sort of dictates what you play in the faster passages ...I feel as though with alternate wherever I am in the song alternate will work and I can get the accents where I want or need them ..
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    Barney said:
    Is the question about ways of creating the notes (e.g. picking, legato etc) or about fretboard visualisation (e.g. seeing/hearing patterns/shapes, scales etc)?
    More about right hand picking and most economical ways..there are pit falls in them all in my opinion apart from alternate which is the hardest to master as well I think..
    OK. I understand now. Sorry for being a bit slow.

    I mainly use alternate picking mixed in with hammer-ons and pull-offs, when I want rhythmically controlled lines.
    I occasionally throw in a bit of hybrid picking.

    I also use extended legato, which comes fairly naturally because I'm left handed but play right handed. However, I tend to float over the beat and land phrases on targeted beats with that technique - the rhythmic equivalent of "falling down stairs and landing on my feet". I'm currently working through a Tom Quayle instructional video to try to improve my ability to apply more precise rhythmic control with legato.

    I only use economy picking for that EJ/JB double downstroke thing. Apart from that I struggle with economy picking.
    I occasionally use sweep picking (not very well) but I struggle with maintaining precise rhythmic control.


    Yeah I have done work on the Tom Quayle vid....really good info from it but sometimes I feel as iff I tuned in 4ths some of the shapes would be more accessible for me but then it's a whole new learning curve and probably best doing it that way from earlier on ..
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    edited December 2017
    What are you having problems with?  Changing strings when alternate picking?

    Post a picture of you doing some alternate picking so we can work out your picking orientation.  Play at a fast, but comfortable for you tempo.  Try to get the camera facing down the neck, like in the thumbnail of this video (which I would also recommend watching):



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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    edited December 2017
    What are you having problems with?  Changing strings when alternate picking?

    Post a picture of you doing some alternate picking so we can work out your picking orientation.  Play at a fast, but comfortable for you tempo.  Try to get the camera facing down the neck, like in the thumbnail of this video (which I would also recommend watching):





     Probably not the best example but what I done a while back ..there is its of all kinds in but i would not be able to alternate pick this
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    You look like an downward pick slanter, meaning you pick escapes the strings after a upstroke, so you want to orientate your lines so you're changing strings after an upstroke.    

    The fast line at 50 seconds is definitely downward pick slanting and it looks pretty good.   You should continue on like this if you wanted to get faster.  Check out some of Chris Brooks material for an in depth look at downward pick slanting.

    You are also doing what looks like some two way pick slanting movements, around 17 / 18 seconds.  

    Interestingly I looked at another video you had, called 16th October 2015, and you were playing some jazz on a Telecaster.  You were playing using some crosspicking type movements and a little bit of two way pick slanting.  I'm guessing the crosspicking comes from changing strings after only playing one note on a particular string.  

    You should figure out one movement and stick with it.  Based on this clip I would reckon downward pick slanting would be the way to go.


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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    You look like an downward pick slanter, meaning you pick escapes the strings after a upstroke, so you want to orientate your lines so you're changing strings after an upstroke.    

    The fast line at 50 seconds is definitely downward pick slanting and it looks pretty good.   You should continue on like this if you wanted to get faster.  Check out some of Chris Brooks material for an in depth look at downward pick slanting.

    You are also doing what looks like some two way pick slanting movements, around 17 / 18 seconds.  

    Interestingly I looked at another video you had, called 16th October 2015, and you were playing some jazz on a Telecaster.  You were playing using some crosspicking type movements and a little bit of two way pick slanting.  I'm guessing the crosspicking comes from changing strings after only playing one note on a particular string.  

    You should figure out one movement and stick with it.  Based on this clip I would reckon downward pick slanting would be the way to go.



    Thanks ...I'm not really sure what downward pick slanting is but will certainly look into it ..I tend to use legato on some faster bits ...not that I want to play fast all the time ...just wondering what everybody most economical way is and downfalls and gains of them :)
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    Barney said:
    Awse as always. Is it based on mcalpine? It sounds like him, not only the progressions and soloing but also the keyboard sound and your rather dark guitar sound. Nice. 

    I think you hold the plectrum so only a teeny weeny bit protudes, which allows you to play those machinegun sections and obviously enables you to play legato too - hence why you can switch between them so easily. I can’t quite see that it’s downslanted, but then I am looking on a mobile phone so Mr. Binge is probably right!
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Awse as always. Is it based on mcalpine? It sounds like him, not only the progressions and soloing but also the keyboard sound and your rather dark guitar sound. Nice. 

    I think you hold the plectrum so only a teeny weeny bit protudes, which allows you to play those machinegun sections and obviously enables you to play legato too - hence why you can switch between them so easily. I can’t quite see that it’s downslanted, but then I am looking on a mobile phone so Mr. Binge is probably right!

    He is using some upward pickslanting at times, but on the fast part at 50 seconds it's downward pickslanting because of the angle of his wrist.  Look at how the forearm is against the body around 44 seconds - this is a typical upward pickslanting position.  He then changes and the forearm moves away from the body of the guitar before the fast picked run - this is because he is changing to downward pickslanting and the pick wants to change strings after an upstroke. 
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Awse as always. Is it based on mcalpine? It sounds like him, not only the progressions and soloing but also the keyboard sound and your rather dark guitar sound. Nice. 

    I think you hold the plectrum so only a teeny weeny bit protudes, which allows you to play those machinegun sections and obviously enables you to play legato too - hence why you can switch between them so easily. I can’t quite see that it’s downslanted, but then I am looking on a mobile phone so Mr. Binge is probably right!

    I remember listening to a few albums of Tony mcalpine years ago but not really tried to learn any of his stuff...this backing track was just a random one off YouTube.. so maybe with the backing track tried to get the same sort of feel :)
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  • welshboyowelshboyo Frets: 847
    edited January 3
    Barney said:
    @Barney ;;;

    bastard...that is all ;-)


    Seriously though - I've always strived for that Holdsworth/Dunnery Legato but can never quite get it - I've got the speed and Legato technique but I just can't get that fluidity and its probably the 4 note per string piece that I struggle to stretch to that holds me back..

    Envious
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    welshboyo said:
    Barney said:
    @Barney ;;;

    bastard...that is all ;-)


    Seriously though - I've always strived for that Holdsworth/Dunnery Legato but can never quite get it - I've got the speed and Legato technique but I just can't get that fluidity and its probably the 4 note per string piece that I struggle to stretch to that holds me back..

    Envious

    LOL...if listened to lots of Holdsworth but very early on I realised he had long fingers and I had short..lol so the 4 note a string stuff I keep away from most of the time ..just use 3nps
    :)
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  • vizviz Frets: 4412
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Awse as always. Is it based on mcalpine? It sounds like him, not only the progressions and soloing but also the keyboard sound and your rather dark guitar sound. Nice. 

    I think you hold the plectrum so only a teeny weeny bit protudes, which allows you to play those machinegun sections and obviously enables you to play legato too - hence why you can switch between them so easily. I can’t quite see that it’s downslanted, but then I am looking on a mobile phone so Mr. Binge is probably right!

    He is using some upward pickslanting at times, but on the fast part at 50 seconds it's downward pickslanting because of the angle of his wrist.  Look at how the forearm is against the body around 44 seconds - this is a typical upward pickslanting position.  He then changes and the forearm moves away from the body of the guitar before the fast picked run - this is because he is changing to downward pickslanting and the pick wants to change strings after an upstroke. 
    Ah, ok cool, got it now. Cheers!
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    viz said:
    viz said:
    Barney said:
    Awse as always. Is it based on mcalpine? It sounds like him, not only the progressions and soloing but also the keyboard sound and your rather dark guitar sound. Nice. 

    I think you hold the plectrum so only a teeny weeny bit protudes, which allows you to play those machinegun sections and obviously enables you to play legato too - hence why you can switch between them so easily. I can’t quite see that it’s downslanted, but then I am looking on a mobile phone so Mr. Binge is probably right!

    He is using some upward pickslanting at times, but on the fast part at 50 seconds it's downward pickslanting because of the angle of his wrist.  Look at how the forearm is against the body around 44 seconds - this is a typical upward pickslanting position.  He then changes and the forearm moves away from the body of the guitar before the fast picked run - this is because he is changing to downward pickslanting and the pick wants to change strings after an upstroke. 
    Ah, ok cool, got it now. Cheers!
    No problem.  

    As as a general rule of thumb, whenever someone is playing with their forearm against the body of the guitar they are likely using upward pickslanting and the pick strokes escape the strings on the downstroke.  

    Andy James and Guthrie are upward pickslanters and start a lot of phrases on a single string with upstrokes so they finish on downstrokes and they can make the string change smoothly.  

    Downward pickslanters have their forearm away from the body (supinated) and change strings  best with upstrokes.  
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 1530
    Alternate, I suppose. Depends on the sound/line I want. I also use legato/tapping to make things easier/faster/possible.
    bingefeller said:
    You should figure out one movement and stick with it.  Based on this clip I would reckon downward pick slanting would be the way to go.
    @bingefeller Interesting. I'd think one would need to tailor the approach to the vocabulary?
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    DLM said:
    Alternate, I suppose. Depends on the sound/line I want. I also use legato/tapping to make things easier/faster/possible.
    bingefeller said:
    You should figure out one movement and stick with it.  Based on this clip I would reckon downward pick slanting would be the way to go.
    @bingefeller Interesting. I'd think one would need to tailor the approach to the vocabulary?
    Yeah, sure you would tailor the approach.  Once you have this down the possibilities are endless.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    DLM said:
    Alternate, I suppose. Depends on the sound/line I want. I also use legato/tapping to make things easier/faster/possible.
    bingefeller said:
    You should figure out one movement and stick with it.  Based on this clip I would reckon downward pick slanting would be the way to go.
    @bingefeller Interesting. I'd think one would need to tailor the approach to the vocabulary?

    Yeah at the end of the day it does depend on the sound your looking for ...but was really meaning the most economical way so we can do what we like ...it's good to mix and match I think but sometimes particular phrases lend themselves to certain picking patterns..so we are locking ourselves into stylewise things instead of what we actually want to play....not sure off that makes sense :)
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 1530
    edited January 9

    Surely the most economic/easiest/fastest way of playing any line will depend on the line?

    As an example: I've done a bit of experimentation with Syrek/Münzner inspired limitations (Buckethead and Beach do close proximity tapping stuff too, but are not physically impaired). Some of the 3nps patterns you'll never get as fast with just your fretting hand, picked or HO/PO. You can alternate between hands faster than between fingers.

    But then, the easiest way might not sound best, which is where I think you're coming from: it's good to practice the hard stuff too, to have a broader range of colours! 

    Sorta related, this Instagram post:

    Caption: "benellerguitarsWhen you've invested all of your time into working on your sweeps but you fucking suck at everything else. "

    lol

    We've all seen that guy!

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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    DLM said:j

    Surely the most economic/easiest/fastest way of playing any line will depend 

    But then, the easiest way might not sound best, which is where I think you're coming from: it's good to practice the hard stuff too, to have a broader range of colours! 



    Yeah that's sort of what I was meaning..the most economical ways are fine in isolation cos you can find the easiest way to play that line ..but probably harder to negotiate things mid solo ..especially iff you decide your gonna add some notes in or take some out ...maybe when going into the line it falls on a down stoke and it needed to be a up to use the economy picking for example ...and this is forgetting about the sound you would like to achieve ...

    When I think of alternate it will work which ever way we are going ...on any idea that comes at any given moment ...the ideal situation is probably to learn them all very well :)
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  • DLMDLM Frets: 1530

    I've read all Shaun Baxter's GT columns over the years, and he reckons if you do enough economy picking exercises, it becomes so ingrained that what you describe isn't a problem.

    But: Martin Goulding was initially a Baxter acolyte, and later discovered the wonders of the sound of pure alternate picking.

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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 632
    edited January 11
    I find alternate picking and hybrid picking (perhaps with the occasional hammer on or pull off) is best for syncopated funky picking, swing rhythms etc, where the notes are of uneven length. Whenever I play legato or sweep picking, the notes end up being of pretty even length.

    Can anyone do syncopated and swing rhythms with legato or sweep picking? That's a cue for someone to post some clips, if they can find any

    It's not a competition
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5202
    I find alternate picking and hybrid picking (perhaps with the occasional hammer on or pull off) is best for syncopated funky picking, swing rhythms etc, where the notes are of uneven length. Whenever I play legato or sweep picking, the notes end up being of pretty even length.

    Can anyone do syncopated and swing rhythms with legato or sweep picking? That's a cue for someone to post some clips, if they can find any

    How many strings are you sweeping across?  Sweeping does tend to make the notes of uneven length:


    If you listen to the slowed down version you can tell that not all of his notes are of the same length.  I tend to think of sweeping as you know what chunk of notes you're going to hit on a certain beat and you know what note you're going to land on on the next beat so that's all you have to worry about.  Just let the rhythm take care of itself. 

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  • I find alternate picking and hybrid picking (perhaps with the occasional hammer on or pull off) is best for syncopated funky picking, swing rhythms etc, where the notes are of uneven length. Whenever I play legato or sweep picking, the notes end up being of pretty even length.

    Can anyone do syncopated and swing rhythms with legato or sweep picking? That's a cue for someone to post some clips, if they can find any

    How many strings are you sweeping across?  Sweeping does tend to make the notes of uneven length:


    If you listen to the slowed down version you can tell that not all of his notes are of the same length.  I tend to think of sweeping as you know what chunk of notes you're going to hit on a certain beat and you know what note you're going to land on on the next beat so that's all you have to worry about.  Just let the rhythm take care of itself. 


     Yes there's a swing feel (i.e. notes of uneven length) at the start of that. It's a bit difficult to tell whether he's alternate picking or economy picking during the section with uneven note lengths.

    Monster player and, even though he's noted as a sweep and economy picker, he's an excellent alternate picker as well - I've got his Chopbulder Guitar Workout video.

    It's not a competition
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 307
    I find alternate picking and hybrid picking (perhaps with the occasional hammer on or pull off) is best for syncopated funky picking, swing rhythms etc, where the notes are of uneven length. Whenever I play legato or sweep picking, the notes end up being of pretty even length.

    Can anyone do syncopated and swing rhythms with legato or sweep picking? That's a cue for someone to post some clips, if they can find any

    How many strings are you sweeping across?  Sweeping does tend to make the notes of uneven length:


    If you listen to the slowed down version you can tell that not all of his notes are of the same length.  I tend to think of sweeping as you know what chunk of notes you're going to hit on a certain beat and you know what note you're going to land on on the next beat so that's all you have to worry about.  Just let the rhythm take care of itself. 


     Yes there's a swing feel (i.e. notes of uneven length) at the start of that. It's a bit difficult to tell whether he's alternate picking or economy picking during the section with uneven note lengths.

    Monster player and, even though he's noted as a sweep and economy picker, he's an excellent alternate picker as well - I've got his Chopbulder Guitar Workout video.


    I think you need to be really good at alternate picking before doing economy...
    I don't think economy is good off you want to get that swing feel , alternate I think will always be much better but economy better for other things..
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