Fretboard visualisation - who uses CAGED/3nps

mburekenge

As per thread title.

I've spent an age playing 3nps which has really helped my technique... my alternate picking has come on loads.

I'm not convinced it's giving me the best fretboard visualisation though.

Anyone prefer one to the other? 

Im going to go back to mixing it up I feel.

JMP220478

see this - http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/121749/3-notes-per-string-vs-the-caged-system#latest

mburekenge

cheers @JMP220478 ;

Clarky

I sort of do...
I use pentatonic shapes to visualise the neck and fill in the gaps to make 7 note scales

Phil_aka_Pip

mburekenge said:

Im going to go back to mixing it up I feel.

Whatever works.

I never learned CAGED. Alan Limbrick at The Guitar Institute taught 3nps, but he got us to visualise each pattern as being around a chord shape. I guess it was the same idea - to see a pattern as a superset of a chord shape, so the shape was the hook you hung the new pattern knowledge on, and when you were playing off against that chord you knew where the chord tones were within the scale. Always useful

Lestratcaster

I learnt both at music institute but I must say I like the CAGED system cos I can see the shapes across the fretboard so can fit in with that. Makes it quicker to work out note relationships and intervals. 3 note per string is good for runs and stuff but I don't use it that much.

sweepy

I try and use 4 nps where possible and visualise arpeggios , I looked at the CAGED system but it didn’t seem to work for me albeit I am an old fart and self taught for over 35 yrs

stratman3142

I use a CAGED framework when thinking about chords and scales.

I use the 5 simple common pentatonic shapes (either in their major or minor form) as the basis on which to build chords and scales. I visualise arpeggios, chords and scales either as part of, or a modification of, the 5 basic shapes. Knowing the intervals within the CAGED framework patterns, I can add to, subtract from, or modify the basic pentatonic framework patterns to suit what I need. 

Even when I play 3 or more notes per string, I still hang that visualisation on a CAGED framework, possibly spanning adjacent CAGED patterns.

jrc2806

+1 for the CAGED framework. Worked well for me but that might because my first guitar book was Chords and Scales by David Mead (circa 2003) and therefore became my focus whilst learning. 

Brad

I used both CAGED and 3NPS for a number of years, until I came across the 5 fret method and that kind of changed everything for me as far as learning the fretboard goes. I guess it's a bit of an amalgamation of CAGED and 3NPS as all the CAGED shapes are there, plus some more. Personally I find it a more thorough concept for learning the fretboard.

That's not to say it's better than CAGED or 3NPS etc. I think Jimmy Bruno uses something very similar to CAGED, Allan Holdsworth/OZ Noy employ a lot of 4NPS. All monstrous players in their own right.

A wise man once told me "my triad is the same as your triad, it's what we do with them that makes us unique". I think that is quite relevant here too  

adampeter

Caged system works for me, but thinking of dabbling in the 3nps

matt1973

Interesting thread. I use CAGD quite a lot and 3NPS probably more. The only time I come unstuck is when I take a big jump up the neck. And here’s why; these methods are great but I cannot help but feel they are visualised sequentially and localised to the area you are playing in. I’ve not seen or heard or of a visualisation technique that involves bigger intervalic jumps other than re-indexing the fretboard from a root note further up the neck (which for me feels mentally cumbersome). Anyone know of one?

carlos

matt1973 said:

Interesting thread. I use CAGD quite a lot and 3NPS probably more. The only time I come unstuck is when I take a big jump up the neck. And here’s why; these methods are great but I cannot help but feel they are visualised sequentially and localised to the area you are playing in. I’ve not seen or heard or of a visualisation technique that involves bigger intervalic jumps other than re-indexing the fretboard from a root note further up the neck (which for me feels mentally cumbersome). Anyone know of one?

I don't know a method for that but what I do is just know where all the notes and most of the intervals are. So if I know they key I'm in, I can jump to another root or fifth elsewhere and then visualise the triads and arpeggios from there. If I can see those then the CAGED position is immediately obvious. Not as smooth as it should or could be to be honest.

matt1973

Yeah I endeavour to do that too - although you described it better than I did. Mike Walker once told me Holdsworth used to see the notes of entire fretboard literally light up in his minds eye and he would move around at will. Not sure that’s something that could be taught.

Brad

matt1973 said:

Yeah I endeavour to do that too - although you described it better than I did. Mike Walker once told me Holdsworth used to see the notes of entire fretboard literally light up in his minds eye and he would move around at will. Not sure that’s something that could be taught.

I agree it's not something that can be taught, more that it's something someone develops themselves over time. I've heard George Benson say the same thing. I know Mike too, and there are very few people around who know the ins and outs of the fretboard as well as he does (incidentally, it was through someone else, but via Mike that I first discovered the 5 fret approach). Like Holdsworth, the fretboard lights up for Mike and it can for you and for anyone, as long as there is a patient, systematic approach with a large dollop of hard work thrown in  

daveww

For what it's worth I use a bit of everything; 3nps, CAGED, moveable1,2 and 3 octave scale/mode shapes, the 5 basic major and minor pentatonic positions and last but not least interval positions.  I also learned the whole fretboard in Gmaj/Emin which is probably the most useful.  By moving this pattern up or down I can play in any key and by starting/finishing from different root notes play in almost any mode.  I think all these things start to overlap at some point.

matt1973

Mike is a great teacher. I got lessons off him in my undergraduate days and have pretty much lived by his advice ever since.

I think I may know what you be referring to with the 5 fret method but won’t post any thoughts as I’d prefer keep the thread free of misinformation. Is there a resource you could point me toward on that?

Brad

matt1973 said:

Mike is a great teacher. I got lessons off him in my undergraduate days and have pretty much lived by his advice ever since.

I think I may know what you be referring to with the 5 fret method but won’t post any thoughts as I’d prefer keep the thread free of misinformation. Is there a resource you could point me toward on that?

That he is! Out of interest, where did you study?

The only resource I can find online is his website. In a nutshell, it's getting everything (well, a LOT of stuff) - scales, arpeggios and chords all sorted between frets 1-5 in all 12 keys. The work done here just then transfers up the neck to cover it completely. 

matt1973

Ha! Yes thought it might be. That was the subeject of my first lesson with Mike. It’s probably worth revisiting actually. Given that the lesson in question was over twenty years ago.

i studied Popular Music at a place called Bretton Hall back in the 1990s’. 

mburekenge

I think the key to it is 'active practice' my own made up term lol meaning thinking about what you are doing rather than simple finger/pattern mechanics.

I spent a long time playing Ionian 3 notes per string, patterns of 3/4/5 notes, up in 3rds, triads etc but i dont think I really activated my noggin about the intervals.

As a result my alternate picking technique etc improved dramatically, but im not convinced I moved on musically if you catch my drift.

Im now working through Martin Miller's jtc masterclass which is more focussed on intervals and relating them to CAGED.

Early days but i find it hard to concentrate when working on these exercises for more than a few minutes. Need to develop greater focus!

stratman3142

mburekenge said:

I think the key to it is 'active practice' my own made up term lol meaning thinking about what you are doing rather than simple finger/pattern mechanics...


I'm now working through Martin Miller's jtc masterclass which is more focused on intervals and relating them to CAGED...

I very much agree with this and I like the way Martin Miller explains things. And good on Levi Clay for championing the CAGED system when it appeared to coming under attack and unfashionable, based on a certain individual who shall remain nameless.

Not that there's anything wrong with other ways of looking at things. I'm assuming the five fret method and the three note per string methods view things in terms of intervals so it all boils down to different perspectives of essentially the same thing. As you say what really matters is "thinking about what you are doing rather than simple finger/pattern mechanics".

I think very much in terms of CAGED and intervals and posted my thought process on the other related thread at the link below.
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1772138/#Comment_1772138