Hot Rod Deluxe IV lack of clean headroom...

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StefBStefB Frets: 2331
According to the review in the new edition of The Guitar Magazine, the loudest 40 watt amp on the planet suffers from a lack of clean headroom :D :D :D
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    That's not necessarily a contradiction - it's not impossible. It depends on the gain structure - if it overdrives fairly early in the preamp it could have low clean headroom and still put out a huge amount of (distorted) volume when that overdriven sound is then amplified by the full power of the rest of the amp.

    The Mesa Dual Rectifier is like that - it doesn't have anywhere near as much clean headroom as a Fender Twin because it has a lot more gain early in the preamp, whereas the Twin has very little... so the Twin will stay clean all the way up to where the power valves distort, but the Mesa will overdrive first even though it's louder.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • darcymdarcym Frets: 1297
    I used to get this with a blues deluxe, changed the preamp and power tubes to a different brand and now it's almost full open before it breaks up in any way.
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  • darcym said:
    I used to get this with a blues deluxe, changed the preamp and power tubes to a different brand and now it's almost full open before it breaks up in any way.
    Out of interest what preamp and power tubes did you put in?
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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12645
    Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the clean channel of this amp? As a HRD3 owner, the clean channel is the best thing about it - loud, clear, reliable and a superb pedal platform.
    If I wanted an amp that overdrove 'early' I'd buy a brand known for such - and one that did so well. Fender amps are all about the cleans (OK, back it up Tweed people... I'll get to you) and IMHO, its what they do best. The HRD overdrive channel on the Mk3 can get you through a gig if you forgot your pedal board but you wouldn't want to use it solely.
    Tweed amps, I accept are the exception - and there are some superb amps out there that use Fender's early circuits for their drive capabilities. However, if you want a Tweed Fender drive sound, you don't tend to be the sort of person who's going to buy a HRD - and visa versa. So its a bizzare thing to do.

    FWIW - I tried lower gain valves in my HRD and it killed the warmth and sparkle. Yes it stayed clean but it took on the characteristics of a bad transistor amp. Perhaps I chose the wrong ones but I never found that volume was a problem with mine, even with the standard valve set.
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    impmann said:
    Doesn't this defeat the whole point of the clean channel of this amp? As a HRD3 owner, the clean channel is the best thing about it - loud, clear, reliable and a superb pedal platform.
    If I wanted an amp that overdrove 'early' I'd buy a brand known for such - and one that did so well. Fender amps are all about the cleans (OK, back it up Tweed people... I'll get to you) and IMHO, its what they do best. The HRD overdrive channel on the Mk3 can get you through a gig if you forgot your pedal board but you wouldn't want to use it solely.
    Tweed amps, I accept are the exception - and there are some superb amps out there that use Fender's early circuits for their drive capabilities. However, if you want a Tweed Fender drive sound, you don't tend to be the sort of person who's going to buy a HRD - and visa versa. So its a bizzare thing to do.
    I cannot possibly disagree more :).

    The HRD does a *great* Tweed overdrive sound. I A/B'd one with a boutique 5E3 copy a while back, and you could get them to sound pretty close to identical. I will be fair and admit it was one of those limited edition tweed MkIIs with a Jensen speaker, but I don't think the tweed is necessary ;).

    I really have no idea why the Drive channel is so underrated/disliked, even on the standard version - to me, it's one of the best features of the amp. It doesn't sound like a Marshall, no... it's not meant to. It's meant to sound like an overdriven Fender, and it does that very well. I know someone who recorded a couple of albums with one, and it sounds great.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • impmannimpmann Frets: 12645
    ICBM said:


    I really have no idea why the Drive channel is so underrated/disliked, even on the standard version - to me, it's one of the best features of the amp. It doesn't sound like a Marshall, no... it's not meant to. It's meant to sound like an overdriven Fender, and it does that very well. I know someone who recorded a couple of albums with one, and it sounds great.
    I do - its fucking horrible!!!

    Seriously, I've gigged my HRD in many scenarios - and no, I don't want it to sound like a Marshall either (I'd own a Marshall if I did). Its a nasty overdrive that flubs, it doesn't sit well in a band mix and if you want it to cut through its fizzy and harsh. Overdriven Fenders can be exactly that too but they can also be tamed - this channel can't. PLUS it gets lost in most band mixes, does NOT have the depth of sound at volume and just sounds... fucking horrible.

    Perhaps I should say that I'm not a fan of the farty/flubby/Neil Young having a wig-out 'tweed' sound others seem to revel in. Each to their own and all that but it just sounds like the amp is busted or just about to. If thats the 'tweed' sound that floats your boat, then perhaps the dirty channel of a HRD is right up your street...

    However, the clean channel with a good overdrive pedal (Okko Diablo for example) is a great sound that cuts and retains a non-Marshall flavour. Its also how the *VAST MAJORITY* of owners use them!
    Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    impmann said:

    Seriously, I've gigged my HRD in many scenarios - and no, I don't want it to sound like a Marshall either (I'd own a Marshall if I did). Its a nasty overdrive that flubs, it doesn't sit well in a band mix and if you want it to cut through its fizzy and harsh. Overdriven Fenders can be exactly that too but they can also be tamed - this channel can't. PLUS it gets lost in most band mixes, does NOT have the depth of sound at volume and just sounds... fucking horrible.
    I really disagree. If it's dialled in right it sounds great. The chap in this band used a Tele, a stock HRD, no pedals... a lot of clean sounds, but he also used the amp's overdrive channel. OK, not high gain stuff.

    https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/splendid

    Listen to 'Shining On You' in particular, that's a *great* light-overdrive sound. Or 'Love Rains Down' from the other album...

    https://store.cdbaby.com/cd/splendid2

    I saw them live several times and the amp always sounded fine in the band mix too.

    impmann said:

    Perhaps I should say that I'm not a fan of the farty/flubby/Neil Young having a wig-out 'tweed' sound others seem to revel in. Each to their own and all that but it just sounds like the amp is busted or just about to. If thats the 'tweed' sound that floats your boat, then perhaps the dirty channel of a HRD is right up your street...
    Yes, it does that as well :). In fact, I got the very best low-volume Neil Young sound I've ever heard out of one, with a Danelectro. Set very differently though, with the bass up full which you would never normally do.

    impmann said:

    However, the clean channel with a good overdrive pedal (Okko Diablo for example) is a great sound that cuts and retains a non-Marshall flavour. Its also how the *VAST MAJORITY* of owners use them!
    I know, and it still baffles me. A lot don't seem to want to even *try* to use it...

    You may be surprised that I don't own one, in fact. One of the main reasons for that is that I don't like amps with top-mounted controls, or I may do. And I'm still tempted sometimes.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • stratman3142stratman3142 Frets: 2177
    edited February 2018
    impmann said:
    ICBM said:


    I really have no idea why the Drive channel is so underrated/disliked, even on the standard version - to me, it's one of the best features of the amp. It doesn't sound like a Marshall, no... it's not meant to. It's meant to sound like an overdriven Fender, and it does that very well. I know someone who recorded a couple of albums with one, and it sounds great.
    I do - its fucking horrible!!!

    Seriously, I've gigged my HRD in many scenarios - and no, I don't want it to sound like a Marshall either (I'd own a Marshall if I did). Its a nasty overdrive that flubs, it doesn't sit well in a band mix and if you want it to cut through its fizzy and harsh. Overdriven Fenders can be exactly that too but they can also be tamed - this channel can't. PLUS it gets lost in most band mixes, does NOT have the depth of sound at volume and just sounds... fucking horrible.

    Perhaps I should say that I'm not a fan of the farty/flubby/Neil Young having a wig-out 'tweed' sound others seem to revel in. Each to their own and all that but it just sounds like the amp is busted or just about to. If thats the 'tweed' sound that floats your boat, then perhaps the dirty channel of a HRD is right up your street...

    However, the clean channel with a good overdrive pedal (Okko Diablo for example) is a great sound that cuts and retains a non-Marshall flavour. Its also how the *VAST MAJORITY* of owners use them!

    As someone who gigged with an HRD III for years, I couldn't agree more. But each to their own

    It's not a competition.
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  • MattFGBIMattFGBI Frets: 1602
    Lack of clean headroom on a Hot Rod? I don't think so.  
    This is not an official response. 

    contactemea@fender.com 


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  • I've heard cleaner 40w amps, I used one for a few gigs once and liked the way there was slight breakup at manageable volumes.  When I say breakup, it was more a warming/blurring on the clean channel when getting to decent levels.

    That said, this one had the old Fender Special design in it, I think they have a Celestion A type now which should be louder.  And for more headroom you could always swap that for a Gold or G12H

    I also like the gain channels, although out the gain / volume sweet spot they do sound pants.

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  • darcymdarcym Frets: 1297
    darcym said:
    I used to get this with a blues deluxe, changed the preamp and power tubes to a different brand and now it's almost full open before it breaks up in any way.
    Out of interest what preamp and power tubes did you put in?


    I can't remember but I'll take a look in a minute, they where TAD higher spec 6L6, and 12AY7 in the preamp positions, again these where reasonably respected quality stuff. It made the little 1x12 blues amp a fantastic amp. I'm pretty sure I've posted about the magic blues deluxe amp that I found on this forum, but these valves really helped it.



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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    That’s not really the same as changing brands. 12AY7s will lower the gain a lot... although I hope you mean in V1, rather than all three positions - it probably wouldn’t be a good idea in V3 at least.

    My favourite set in either a Blues or Hotrod Deluxe is a 12AY7 in V1, 12AX7 in V2 and 12AT7 in V3. This opens up the tone of the clean channel while leaving the Drive channel sounding good ;).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • That's good info. I'm not really a fan of 12AY7s for lowering the gain - tends to make the amp sound thin in my experience, but maybe it works ok in these amps. Not that they lack headroom I'm my experience. 
     I've found the biggest contributer to higher headroom and 'better' tone in fender amps is to get the highest spec power valves you can afford. I put a set of Svetlana Winged C 6L6s in my Custom Vibrolux Reverb and it made a hell of a difference. Still not the most headroom for a 35W amp, but great tone. 
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  • That's good info. I'm not really a fan of 12AY7s for lowering the gain - tends to make the amp sound thin in my experience, but maybe it works ok in these amps. Not that they lack headroom I'm my experience. 
     I've found the biggest contributer to higher headroom and 'better' tone in fender amps is to get the highest spec power valves you can afford. I put a set of Svetlana Winged C 6L6s in my Custom Vibrolux Reverb and it made a hell of a difference. Still not the most headroom for a 35W amp, but great tone. 
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  • RiftAmpsRiftAmps Frets: 3113
    tFB Trader
    The new MKIV HRD really does have very little clean headroom, at least the two I tried did.
    *I no longer offer replacement speaker baffles*
    Rift Amplification
    Handwired Guitar Amplifiers
    Brackley, Northamptonshire
    www.riftamps.co.uk

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71959
    If so that sounds like an odd design choice given that it *is* true that most people use them as a clean pedal platform... have they messed it up to fix something that didn’t really matter?

    Personally I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the MkII, I’ve never thought the MkIII sounded quite as good.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Yes that's bonkers if true. There's always the not-updated Blues Deluxe, which I like better than the HRD anyway.
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31368
    MattFGBI said:
    Lack of clean headroom on a Hot Rod? I don't think so.  
    They're talking about the new one. 
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  • Good, I am thinking of getting rid of my HRD-III so now I can say "the HRD-IV have no headroom, buy this one instead!"

    I think I tried that trick with my DSL50 too. "Pre-RoHS leaded solder, the good stuff!"
    I'm just a Maserati in a world of Kias.
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  • Which input where you in?

    does this make the deville Iv more tempting? 
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