Basic Chord Help

Dave_J_G

Hi All

I have a feeling this a very naive question...

The first chords nearly all books / resources tell you to learn are the "standard" major and minor chords. For example those here https://www.guitarhabits.com/the-8-most-important-open-guitar-chords-for-beginners/.

Why is it therefore, that the "standard" E major (top one here http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/e-major-chord.html) sounds lower than the standard C major (top one here http://www.guitar-chords.org.uk/c-major-chord.html) when E is above C on a scale / in a given octave.

Is because the "standard E" chord's root is in an octave lower than that of the  standard "C" root?

If so, why are beginners told to learn these chords? Would not make more sense to learn  chord shapes that make a sound that increases and decreases in pitch as you move from A-->F and F-->A respectively (like hitting the white keys on a piano sequentially would). Wouldn't that allow you to recreate tunes more easily? For example, and ignoring chord progression rules etc:

If on a piano I made a tune that went C-->D-->E-->D-->C, the sound would go up then down. The same would be true if I played key triads with those notes as roots.

If I did the same using standard chords on a guitar it would go up from C to D but then down from D to E.

Or am I missing something?

Best wishes,

Dave

Corvus

At first it's more a case of getting used to 'grips' or forms, certain chord shapes. If you want that pitch progression then you need different positions. Like for the E-C you could use the C-shape with the root on the 7th fret A string for the E chord, then the open C. Or the barred shape (the open A shape), descending E to C.

The roots of those two in the links: the C shape root is on the A string 3rd fret. The E shape root is the low open E string, a minor sixth lower down. The open E has the low E string plus a B note, both lower in pitch than the C shape's root. Hence sounding lower/fuller.

Side note, in those shapes the C chord has the root appearing twice (A string, B string), and the E chord has it three times (the two open Es and on the D string). The root isn't necessarily the lowest note played.

m_c

It's more to do with what's easiest to play, than theory. I think you'll struggle to find many beginner guitarists who are interested in theory, they just want to play using the easiest possible method.


E is the easiest major chord that uses all strings (and means beginners don't have to worry about only playing certain strings).
A is the next easiest, and if a beginner does happen to catch the bottom string, it's not the end of the world, as E is still part of an A chord.
Then you have D. You ideally don't want to hit the bottom string for that, but you can get away with catching the next string, as A is part of the D major chord.

A,D&E, are relatively easy chord changes. You can use an anchor finger while changing, so ideal for beginners, and with just those 3 chords, you can play quite a few songs.
When you move onto C and G, they involve more finger movements, so are used as the next logical step to improving finger movement.

Then you add in the easy minor chords, Em, and Am, and then just to complete all the possible easy/open major and minor chords, you throw in the Dm (which to this day still takes me far more thought than I'd like to admit to play quickly!).

Once you've learnt those chords, you're into rarely used open chords (Gm), and chords that require 4 fingers or use of the pinky, which is a struggle for lots of beginners.

EricTheWeary

I don't necessarily agree that chord progression would go up then down on piano. If you started with middle C then there are multiple versions of D below as well as above as well as all the possible inversions. When I learned some basic piano chords they weren't all played root-third-fifth because then you have to make huge leaps around the keyboard. If some of them are inversions you can minimise hand movement. 
Similarly on guitar you learn established shapes that make sense moving from one to another. As you become more experienced you can make different choices. 

Phil_aka_Pip

Accompaniment (comping) is less about absolute pitch than it is about providing harmonies. I start beginners with the A D and E chords because they are (i) the easiest to play (ii) the easiest to change between (iii) the primary chords in the key of A and therefore have uses in lots of different styles. Next lesson: the G & C chords, thus giving you primary chords in the keys of D and G in addition to A.

Lestratcaster

Same as Phil ^

Phil_aka_Pip

@Lestratcaster ... great minds think alike?

Lestratcaster

Something like that, haha.

I just like keeping things simple, get your hand on the thing and play. I don't do theory at the beginning with new learners.

Phil_aka_Pip

Lestratcaster said:

I just like keeping things simple, get your hand on the thing and play. I don't do theory at the beginning with new learners.

I don't labour it, but I slip in references to it along with phrases such as "That will make more sense later, don't worry if it doesn't for now". Then when we get to the relevant theory (further down the line) they've got something practical to hang the theory on to, and they've heard the words before so they aren't frighteningly new. You're right though, at the beginning stage the practical is the main thing.

Lestratcaster

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Lestratcaster said:

I just like keeping things simple, get your hand on the thing and play. I don't do theory at the beginning with new learners.

I don't labour it, but I slip in references to it along with phrases such as "That will make more sense later, don't worry if it doesn't for now". Then when we get to the relevant theory (further down the line) they've got something practical to hang the theory on to, and they've heard the words before so they aren't frighteningly new. You're right though, at the beginning stage the practical is the main thing.

Yeah its all about where to put their fingers and it sounding good at the very beginning. Less is more. They can't concentrate on so many things at once when its hard enough already!

The first song I usually give them is Knockin' On Heaven' Door, only 4 chords in total!

sev112

Never understood why new guitarists are taught (or decide) to learn 6 string chords

occurs to me newbies would be better off taught to play simple phrases on a single string, then the same on a different string at same pitch, then same tune across 2strimgs, then 3 strings

then teach them double stops and three string chords (esp power chords) on top 3 and bottom 3 strings

get them doing that and you’ll have them able to play songs early on without any duff changes, difficulty in remembering where every finger goes etc

Phil_aka_Pip

Lestratcaster said:

The first song I usually give them is Knockin' On Heaven' Door, only 4 chords in total!

I usually give them that in lesson 3 (in which I introduce open-string minor chords). Before that they've been on blues/rock'n'roll/etc with I IV V progressions - although as I said earlier I don't labour the I IV V bit other than to note that if you do A D E in lesson 1, the equivalents in lesson 2 are D G A and G C D. If you have nailed the three chord trick in 3 keys there are loads of songs you can busk even if you haven't learned the minors yet. And when you do learn the minors there must be thousands of I vi IV V songs you can do from the 50s to the present day...

Lestratcaster

sev112 said:

Never understood why new guitarists are taught (or decide) to learn 6 string chords

occurs to me newbies would be better off taught to play simple phrases on a single string, then the same on a different string at same pitch, then same tune across 2strimgs, then 3 strings

then teach them double stops and three string chords (esp power chords) on top 3 and bottom 3 strings

get them doing that and you’ll have them able to play songs early on without any duff changes, difficulty in remembering where every finger goes etc

Depends how old they are, for young children I would do single string melodies. But then its also dependant on the learner.

Most can at least hold down like Em or the bottom 3 strings of a G chord to get things going. As we progress they start adding more fingers to the shapes.

Having said that strangely most of the learners I get have already been playing for a few years, just rubbish at changing chords and staying in time with any music.

Lestratcaster

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Lestratcaster said:

The first song I usually give them is Knockin' On Heaven' Door, only 4 chords in total!

I usually give them that in lesson 3 (in which I introduce open-string minor chords). Before that they've been on blues/rock'n'roll/etc with I IV V progressions - although as I said earlier I don't labour the I IV V bit other than to note that if you do A D E in lesson 1, the equivalents in lesson 2 are D G A and G C D. If you have nailed the three chord trick in 3 keys there are loads of songs you can busk even if you haven't learned the minors yet. And when you do learn the minors there must be thousands of I vi IV V songs you can do from the 50s to the present day...

Fair point, as mentioned above most of my learners can already play some chords at least before coming to me so they just need a refresher on the shapes and changing between them.

I now arrange a lot of songs with a capo so they still use said shapes up and down the neck. Others would perhaps work better with single string melodies but normally it'd involve reading guitar tab if crossing strings, something they don't do very well (e.g they treat the bottom line as the thinnest thing and the top line as the thickest when it should be the other way round!)

Phil_aka_Pip

I hate the way they talk about the "bottom" string as being the one nearest the floor rather than the onw with the lowest notes on it 

Lestratcaster

Lol, maybe they haven't grown accustomed to the fact "bottom" referring to "low end" haha.

But yes you're right, logically it doesn't make sense to see the top line as the bottom string, if you view the guitar strings with the guitar sat on your lap facing up its the same, the low e string will be nearer to your chest.

Funkfingers

Dave_J_G said:

If, on a piano, I made a tune that went C-->D-->E-->D-->C, the PITCH would go up then down. 

FTFY. *

Dave_J_G said:

 The same would be true if I played key triads with those notes as roots.

Only if you use the same chord inversion for every one of those triads in the progression.

Music gets more interesting when you choose something other than the nominal root note of a given chord to be the lowest note that your instrument is sounding.

As a simple example, fingerpick the A Minor chord on the lowest two frets. First, use the open A string as the lowest note. Then, try C at the third fret of the A string under the same Am chord shape ... or B ... or G on the wound E string ... or F#.




* Sorry to be pedantic about technical terms but you will need to get a grasp of these in order to discuss musical ideas with other people.