Gone back to valves

guitarfishbay

RandallFlagg said:

guitarfishbay said:

RandallFlagg said:

That's the thing I don't get. Why with modelling do we have to fiddle about with hi cut, lo cut, boost mids, cut some low end off the cabs etc etc..it does my head in.

I plug into a valve amp, set 3 tone controls, adjust gain and volume and go.

Because a modelling amp direct simulates a recording, and it's standard practice to high and low pass guitar (and most instruments).  The vast majority of all recorded guitar tones using real valve amps have high and low pass filters or at least some amount of post EQ. 

If you're just plugging in to a combo you don't need to do that because you almost never point it at your head (remember a mic is usually right infront of the speaker and close to it so it's getting brightness and also bass from proximity), and also your ear hears differently to how a microphone picks up (if that makes sense).

Here you go, a typical SM57 graph, not really surprising it ends up with more fizzy 6-8khz than you hear with a speaker cab on the floor.

So to use a guitar amp modeller effectively, you need to be a recording engineer/sound technician? Not just a plug and go guitarist?

No but if you are comparing about low and high cuts on a direct sound compared to playing through a combo then you’re not comparing like for like. A person would typically be applying similar cuts to a recording of a guitar is my point.

Plug and play Digital would be a Katana combo or a Blackstar ID.

meltedbuzzbox

robinbowes said:

RandallFlagg said:

So to use a guitar amp modeller effectively, you need to be a recording engineer/sound technician? Not just a plug and go guitarist?

There's an element of truth in that, yes.

When you use a Helix patch, it typically has pedal(s), amp(s), speaker(s), but also a mic with some control over the mic used, placement, and room parameters. I generally don't bother tweaking those as I'm happy with the sounds I get from regular cabs with their default settings.

R. 

I always have to cut the highs on all the helix presets, move the mics away from the cab(s) and use condensers or ribbon mics.
The stock helix sounds have a harsh/unrealistic top end/digitised sound that is quite unpleasant to listen to.

Sporky

meltedbuzzbox said:

I do prefer my amp and pedals though when I have the choice. I couldn't ship out my amps and use the helix as my only guitar amp.

I do understand that too. I'm happiest going all-in with a setup. I don't much care about compromises.

Which is odd, because you should see me trying to choose a jacket or a bag.

TheMarlin

Less is more

Wazmeister

RandallFlagg said:

That's the thing I don't get. Why with modelling do we have to fiddle about with hi cut, lo cut, boost mids, cut some low end off the cabs etc etc..it does my head in.

I plug into a valve amp, set 3 tone controls, adjust gain and volume and go.

I must say, deep down I agree with this...

Having been an early adopter of the FX8/AX8 and now Helix, I find myself increasingly moving back to the simplicity of my valve amps and analogue pedals.

The Helix is incredible, but more about options for me than sound - it just doesn't sound as good as say, a Big Sky into the Carr Rambler. It just doesn't.

The biggest difficulty of any modelling stuff, is the steep learning curve and having to learn a complete new language.

The Helix is an incredible device, and the new OX looks incredible too, but right now.... Im loving a Tele into a Rambler or a Redplate.

midlifecrisis

ive been gigging a laney vc30 212 until 9 months ago i bought a Katana 100 combo, which ive gigged since.  half the weight and size and produces all the tones i need. sounds great in the band mix. but at home i still enjoy playing my valve amps, there is something about them, although i dont get to turn them loud. the katana at gigs, also gives me more consistency, a quick soundcheck, set master volume and then i dont touch the amp all through the show, the foot controller to change patches. i mean to take the vc30 and the katana to rehearsal to propely A/B them but when it comes to it i just pick up the katana and go.

Sassafras

I'm not very adventurous sound-wise so I don't need a zillion options.
I can quickly and easily get a sound I like out of an amp.

polotska

TheMarlin said:

Less is more

Voxman

The old debate of modellng v valves. But there's plenty of room for both and each has their pros and cons, their charms and their woes. I have and like both and use them for different things and even together.  They are simply tools but used properly both can deliver great results.

ToneControl

I always stuck with both

timmysoft

For recording I think that digital modelling is great, you really can simulate a good amp, perfectly mic’ed and at volume, plus with good channel strips, compressors etc you’d be hard pushed to tell the difference.

for live work though I still think nothing touches a good valve amp, especially for the styles I play and what I’m interested in.

my opinion is that digital is a great tool, but for my creative flow, I’m more inspired by the way a valve amp.

if they could launch a hot valve smell plug in then perhaps we’d all change our minds 

Voxman

timmysoft said:

For recording I think that digital modelling is great, you really can simulate a good amp, perfectly mic’ed and at volume, plus with good channel strips, compressors etc you’d be hard pushed to tell the difference.

for live work though I still think nothing touches a good valve amp, especially for the styles I play and what I’m interested in.

my opinion is that digital is a great tool, but for my creative flow, I’m more inspired by the way a valve amp.

if they could launch a hot valve smell plug in then perhaps we’d all change our minds 

Lol! But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX. And although not a modelling amp the H&K Switchblade mixes valves with digital fx. 

timmysoft

Voxman said:

timmysoft said:

For recording I think that digital modelling is great, you really can simulate a good amp, perfectly mic’ed and at volume, plus with good channel strips, compressors etc you’d be hard pushed to tell the difference.

for live work though I still think nothing touches a good valve amp, especially for the styles I play and what I’m interested in.

my opinion is that digital is a great tool, but for my creative flow, I’m more inspired by the way a valve amp.

if they could launch a hot valve smell plug in then perhaps we’d all change our minds 

Lol! But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX. And although not a modelling amp the H&K Switchblade mixes valves with digital fx. 

Yes and they all sounded shit. 

p90fool

I have no problem whatsoever getting a well recorded, 'professional' tone out of digital amps or modellers, but a lot of of the time I'm looking for that amp-vibrating-across-the-floor, near-meltdown barely controlled vibe, that cool thing where you're using all your skill to stop this living, breathing box full of of hot glass running away from you. 

I'm not saying it's impossible to get that early Black Keys thing going with a digital amp, but I've never managed it and I've never heard anyone else do it either. 

It's personal taste in the end, do you want to sound like Guthrie Govan or Albert Collins? 

ICBM

Voxman said:

Lol! But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX.

The odd thing about the Spider Valve is that although the power section is pure valve - it's essentially not much different from running a POD into a valve power amp - and it sounds very good at low volume, the dynamic response and feel at higher volume is much more like a modelling amp than a valve amp... it seems to 'run into a brick wall' in a way that a real valve amp doesn't - which implies that not all of the elusive valve sound is in the power amp. The only explanation I can think of is that they've overdone the modelling emulations of the valve-amp response and the power amp is never allowed to really be pushed.

The earlier Voxes are really excellent, certainly - and they’re also ‘triple hybrids’ in that the preamp is digital, then there’s the miniature valve power amp, and finally a standard analogue solid-state power stage to actually drive the speakers. Overall, I think they’re the best modellers I’ve tried. Sadly they later simplified them (in the valve power amp area mostly, presumably to cut cost) and the later versions don’t sound quite as good.

Neill

p90fool said:

I have no problem whatsoever getting a well recorded, 'professional' tone out of digital amps or modellers, but a lot of of the time I'm looking for that amp-vibrating-across-the-floor, near-meltdown barely controlled vibe, that cool thing where you're using all your skill to stop this living, breathing box full of of hot glass running away from you. 

I'm not saying it's impossible to get that early Black Keys thing going with a digital amp, but I've never managed it and I've never heard anyone else do it either. 

It's personal taste in the end, do you want to sound like Guthrie Govan or Albert Collins? 

That's it for me too - I probably sounded more "professional" when I was di-ing through a modeller into the PA but I listen to old recordings where I was just using a strat straight into JCM800 and I think that's me, warts and all.  I hesitate to say it's a more "honest" sound but that's how it feels to me.  

It's the same reason why there's still a few of us diehards left still using photographic film.  You can get a much more polished result from digital but it lacks that certain difficult to define quality, you might call it "soul".

Voxman

timmysoft said:

Voxman said:

timmysoft said:

For recording I think that digital modelling is great, you really can simulate a good amp, perfectly mic’ed and at volume, plus with good channel strips, compressors etc you’d be hard pushed to tell the difference.

for live work though I still think nothing touches a good valve amp, especially for the styles I play and what I’m interested in.

my opinion is that digital is a great tool, but for my creative flow, I’m more inspired by the way a valve amp.

if they could launch a hot valve smell plug in then perhaps we’d all change our minds 

Lol! But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX. And although not a modelling amp the H&K Switchblade mixes valves with digital fx. 

Yes and they all sounded shit. 

Really?.. the AD120VTX esp. with an eq and BBESSM in the fx loop sounds great. In fact it's one of the best sounding and most versatile rigs I've ever had.  And I've had a load of valve amps Inc a 1974 Vox AC30, Selmer zodiac mkII, Fender Blackface dual reverb, silver face, Marshall JCM800, JTM45, 100w Plexi, Orange 50w arc.  Currently I have a DSL401, Laney VC30-210 and Cub12R. So I Don't speak from a lack of all valve experience.  

Contrary to popular fallacy, unlike all subsequent Valvetronix, the valves in the original blue amps are for all intents and purposes in the power amp section and just like an all valve amp the clever valve reactor design reacts with speaker impedance so the louder you crank it the better it sounds. 

Sporky

p90fool said:

It's personal taste in the end, do you want to sound like Guthrie Govan or Albert Collins? 

Not really, no.

Voxman

timmysoft said:

But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX. And although not a modelling amp the H&K Switchblade mixes valves with digital fx. 

Yes and they all sounded shit. 

This is the Vox Valvetronix AD30VT. It was the first budget version of the Valvetronix range when the 'Blues' were discontinued i.e. the most basic of all the Valvetronix amps. 

You really think this sounds shit @timmysoft ? ;

ICBM

Voxman said:

This is the Vox Valvetronix AD30VT. It was the first budget version of the Valvetronix range when the 'Blues' were discontinued i.e. the most basic of all the Valvetronix amps.

I had one of those which I acquired with a blown speaker, and I also had a shipping-damaged 10" Weber Silver Bell which although I had repaired, wasn't really good enough to sell in its own right, so I stuck it in the Vox... it sounded fantastic.

I probably shouldn't have sold it, but to be honest I was just never happy with the rather low-quality particle-board cabinet and the easy-tear vinyl covering - it just looked a bit rough. If it had a nicer cabinet I would have kept it. Shallow I know .