Gone back to valves

Plectrum

I don't care about all this valve vs modeller. Use whatever makes you happy/works for you.

ICBM

Plectrum said:

I don't care about all this valve vs modeller. Use whatever makes you happy/works for you.

Same here, I'm just curious as to why they're different.

It's certainly not that I think only valves are the only way... I'm also someone who chose a solid-state Peavey over a valve Mesa for one band I was in - because it sounded better, no other reason .

RaymondLin

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

ICBM

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

I'm sure there will be, and I'd take a bet that the key ( ) point of discussion will be to do with the 'feel' and dynamic response to the player, not whether it sounds exactly like a piano to a listener.

Paul_C

Sporky said:

meltedbuzzbox said:

I do prefer my amp and pedals though when I have the choice. I couldn't ship out my amps and use the helix as my only guitar amp.

I do understand that too. I'm happiest going all-in with a setup. I don't much care about compromises.

Which is odd, because you should see me trying to choose a jacket or a bag.

timmysoft

Voxman said:

timmysoft said:

But hybrids are out there...the Line 6 Spider Valve (Bogner) mixes digital and valve technologies as does my 'blue' Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX. And although not a modelling amp the H&K Switchblade mixes valves with digital fx. 

Yes and they all sounded shit. 

This is the Vox Valvetronix AD30VT. It was the first budget version of the Valvetronix range when the 'Blues' were discontinued i.e. the most basic of all the Valvetronix amps. 

You really think this sounds shit @timmysoft ? ;

That sounds horrible, especially the high gain, which sounds like a cheap distortion pedal into a practice amp.

RaymondLin

ICBM said:

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

I'm sure there will be, and I'd take a bet that the key ( ) point of discussion will be to do with the 'feel' and dynamic response to the player, not whether it sounds exactly like a piano to a listener.

Exactly! I have a Yamaha digital piano, 88 keys, hammer action.  Even I can tell it feels different to a real thing, even to an upright.

the whole thing is really to satisfy the player, not the audience.

Neill

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

ICBM said:

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

I'm sure there will be, and I'd take a bet that the key ( ) point of discussion will be to do with the 'feel' and dynamic response to the player, not whether it sounds exactly like a piano to a listener.

I once had this very discussion with a pro piano player.  He was actually playing the organ at a friend's wedding, something he did as a "sideline". He played a load of classical stuff as we were waiting in church and I remember thinking bloody hell if that's his second instrument...  He couldn't half drink as well.  In the bar afterwards I sheepishly introduced myself as an, ahem, fellow musician, and during the conversation I asked him what he thought about digital technology.  He told me he was all for it, and it wouldn't bother him if he could only play electronic instruments for the rest of his career.  He reckoned they had conquered all the shortcomings about responsiveness which early piano's had.  

This of course is someone who earned his living full time from playing keyboards, but he emphasised it was also his hobby and still preferred all the advantages of digital.  

I have a young friend who is a very good pianist, plays in a theatre orchestra, and he's ambivalent on the issue.  He doesn't much mind either way.  Don't know if these guys are representative but I must admit I was surprised.  



    

RaymondLin

Neill said:

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

ICBM said:

RaymondLin said:

I’m sure there must be a forum somewhere where pianists have the same discussion with grand pianos with digital pianos.

I'm sure there will be, and I'd take a bet that the key ( ) point of discussion will be to do with the 'feel' and dynamic response to the player, not whether it sounds exactly like a piano to a listener.

I once had this very discussion with a pro piano player.  He was actually playing the organ at a friend's wedding, something he did as a "sideline". He played a load of classical stuff as we were waiting in church and I remember thinking bloody hell if that's his second instrument...  He couldn't half drink as well.  In the bar afterwards I sheepishly introduced myself as an, ahem, fellow musician, and during the conversation I asked him what he thought about digital technology.  He told me he was all for it, and it wouldn't bother him if he could only play electronic instruments for the rest of his career.  He reckoned they had conquered all the shortcomings about responsiveness which early piano's had.  

This of course is someone who earned his living full time from playing keyboards, but he emphasised it was also his hobby and still preferred all the advantages of digital.  

I have a young friend who is a very good pianist, plays in a theatre orchestra, and he's ambivalent on the issue.  He doesn't much mind either way.  Don't know if these guys are representative but I must admit I was surprised.  



    

Sounds like if you are good enough, know your craft, it doesn't matter what you use.

Jonathanthomas83

If you go digital, you’ll do yourself no favours if you don’t learn the basics of mics, mic positioning, cabs and speakers.

Personally, no amount of money could tempt me to go back to my old gear now I’ve gone to the Axe FX. Like others, I’ve practiced, played and written much more in the last 11 months than I ever did before that. I’m a better player now too. I credit the Axe FX for that.

57Deluxe

Part of the fun for me is finding those happy accidents when you pair the guitar and amp and a few pedals together. I like that it is the physicality of those individual things that makes the tones - not just someone's programmed algorithms!

Seems the modelling thing is getting cheaper...

https://video1.thomann.de//vidiot/02591c1c/video_i6188p10_yd59vqpa.mp4

menamestom

In all honesty with the price of the Helix LT, there’s no good reason not to own both.
I own a decent valve amp, will be getting another this year, but will keep the my LT whatever.  It’s useful in so many applications the question of valve vs digital has never really come up for me. Sometimes I want the purity of a valve amp, sometimes I want the versatility of the Helix, sometimes I use them together.   The Helix keeps being updated as well which is worth the entrance price alone.

crunchman

One thing that hasn't been discussed much is what it's like for a member of the audience.  if there is a half decent PA a modeler will give a much better sound for the audience.  If you have a traditional backline set up with the PA only used for vocals, someone at the front near the guitar amp will get deafened while someone off to the side won't hear the guitar properly.

Ideally you do want the guitar in the PA to get a decent spread of sound.  If you have a competent sound engineer you are likely to get a better balance as well.  If you are mic'ing an amp into the PA, then you will normally get a better sound out of the PA from a modeler than with an SM57 slapped in front of it.

There is also the reliability issue.  Several times, I've turned up to play places and turned my amp on to get a frying pan sound because of a dodgy valve.

Having said that, recently I've been using a real valve amp live rather than my Kemper, but I am intending to get a Yamaha DXR10 (or similar) soon and start using the Kemper live more.

p90fool

crunchman said:

  If you are mic'ing an amp into the PA, then you will normally get a better sound out of the PA from a modeler than with an SM57 slapped in front of it.

I have gigged and recorded with digital gear extensively and its convenience is undeniable, but I would never claim that a virtual SM57 virtually slapped in front of a virtual speaker sounds better than the real thing.

simonk

I have a foot in both camps. I love my amps but as a band we decided to go all in with modelling (Helix and a GT100) some time last year. We have a more consistent sound now, we can hear ourselves and each other better, and we get far more compliments on our sound from our audience. And it’s not like we were using shite before... it was all Boogies, LazyJ, Louis Electric and our old friend Jet City. Modelling has worked for us and I’m enjoying gigging more as a result.

paulmapp8306

Hum - whatever works.

The AFX, in particular, offers the ability to create amp tones that do not already exist.  The various circuits are modelled, but so are all the components and values - which means its probably the ONLY modeller that allows you to create tones not just copy them.  I also love the variety of tones on offer from a single unit - and lets not forget its first and foremost an FX processor not an amp simulator (this came later in its development).

All that said - if you only need a select few tones, and a decent real amp gives them - then thats still the best sound and feel.  For me, its not that simple - though Im getting closer to being happy with a few rather than a lot. 

Im at the point where I splashed £2k on a stage piano rather than putting that towards and AFX3, and will probably save but then get a nice decent amp instead of the 3 - the 2 being good enough for me to record with and noodle at home.  If I play out (rare these days) then a simple amp will be better.  Having an AFX2 AND a good quality proper amp is better all round than an AFX3 an no amp.  Its taken some soul searching to come to this decision though.

jonnyburgo

Nowt as pure sounding as a valve amp with 8 solid state pedals in front of it

midlifecrisis

jonnyburgo said:

Nowt as pure sounding as a valve amp with 8 solid state pedals in front of it

then micced up and put through a class D PA system

viz

midlifecrisis said:

jonnyburgo said:

Nowt as pure sounding as a valve amp with 8 solid state pedals in front of it

then micced up and put through a class D PA system

And listened to by deaf people who don’t like music. 

BintyTwanger77

If we were all absolutely certain what sounded better to our ears, valves, amp models, analogue, digital, then the sales threads on here would be far far quieter. I like the ease of workflow of the Helix and the convenience of an all-in-one floor unit, but I just prefer valve amps and pedals. It's all subjective. Boring point, but true.