P/J pickup options

horsehorse Frets: 1563
The only bass I've ever owned is an old fender ''squier series" JV precision. When I got it in the mid 90s it had been modified with an emg p/j set, with battery compartment on the back.

The emgs have always sounded good live up loud, but I've always struggled with them for home recording as they sound so big.

So I'm thinking of finally taking the emgs out and replacing them and the loom.

I think I want something fairly vintage sounding for the p, and tbh I could live without the j in the bridge, but as the plate is cut for it I was thinking that something high output / contrasting might be a useful option to have.

Any recommendations for passive combinations? I'm not thinking of having any onboard preamp - prefer to keep it simple I think.

I could just go for the sd quarter pounder set, but thought I might like the p to be a bit more vintage sounding.

Any thoughts / advice appreciated ta
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Comments

  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Funnily enough, from what you have described, the EMG Geezer Butler PJ set would fit the bill nicely. It’s their passive vintage set but the J has a bit more punch and drive to it. 

    My PJ has the Dimarzio DP126BK set in - you can borrow it to have a listen if you like - it’s a pretty neutral clear flat sounding set - errs more on the side of the original 70s dimarzio replacement sets that went into so many 60s basses when the pickups died.. 

    The advantage to a set is that both will be well balanced with each other.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    Oh, and my green 51Precision had a SD QP in it until this week - it’s a very modern punchy meaty sound..
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563
    That's all useful thanks - wouldn't have thought of looking at the geezers.

    I was thinking the quarter pounder set might be a bit more powerful than I want - I think I want the p to be vintage, with the option to modernise / up the stakes by adding in the j
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    horse said:
    That's all useful thanks - wouldn't have thought of looking at the geezers.

    I was thinking the quarter pounder set might be a bit more powerful than I want - I think I want the p to be vintage, with the option to modernise / up the stakes by adding in the j
    The SD QP definitely isn’t vintage. I’ve noticed quite a few old 70s dimarzios on ebay recently - a P from this era would be a cheap way of getting nice vintage tones. 

    The other option is a custom wind set - any of our resident winders would do a perfect vintage P/modern J set which wouldn’t cost that much more I bet. 

    In a PJ set I find the J is naturally quieter/less output anyway, and how you wire the P can make a difference - might be worth considering a P with 4 conductor wire you can put a switch in to split between serial and parallel - and then consider a split coil J to stop hum and do the same (serial/parallel) - I have such a switch on my ACG Finn and it makes a brilliant boost switch and gives some cool alternate tones. 

    You would find serial P alone would be very vintage, but parallel P and J very punchy..
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    PASSIVE
    Bridgehouse said:
    You would find series P alone would be very vintage but parallel P and J very punchy.
    FTFY ;)

    This is what I did with a Bartolini 8S/9JL pair. When the original single conductor + braid output cable on my 8S P-type pickup failed underneath the pickup, I elected to replace it with 4-con + drain. This made possible the series/parallel wiring option to which @Bridgehouse alludes. I positioned the push-pull switch under the Tone knob, making it quick and easy to operate with no possibility of messing up the volume balance.




    ACTIVE 1

    horse said:
    The emgs have always sounded good live up loud but I've always struggled with them for home recording as they sound so big.
    What control arrangement do you currently have?
    • Vol., Vol., Tone? 
    • Vol., Balance, Tone? 
    • Something unconventional?
    The solution to the recording *problem* might be to replace the stock treble roll-off tone control with an active EQ. That could be onboard, in place of the existing tone pot. It could be external, in the form of a pedal or rack EQ device. 

    For home recording, it ought to be possible to apply EQ within your DAW software. In a professional studio, they should have outboard EQ, compressors and limiters.



    ACTIVE 2
    If the prospect of multi-function stacked knob controls fills you with horror, there is always the old Seymour Duncan Active EQ series pickups. (The ones with the little DIP switches in the casing.)

    The switches shift the resonant peak, soften the high treble and reduce the low frequencies. It is possible to get anything from modern hi-fi clarity to a smooth vintage deep/full thump. On a two pickup bass guitar, it is possible to combine the two extremes.

    The innards of the P and short J model are identical. Thus, it is possible to coax a passable P impersonation from a J-Bass and a passable J from a P.

    The trick with these pickups will be finding some. They have been discontinued since the Nineties. 
    Be seeing you.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    My personal opinion is that coaxing a good vintage tone out of any sort of active setup is difficult. The preamp always does some sort of colouring of tone - and I’m yet to hear an onboard preamp which really nails vintage tones at all. 

    For recording I much prefer the passive -> preamp/DI -> desk or plugin preamp as you are always starting from a raw passive output which you can always go back to. 
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11414
    If you don't want to spend a fortune, the Tonerider P pickup is good value.  I put one in my Jazz bass when I converted it to PJ specs.  It's possible slightly hotter than vintage, but it's not ridiculous.
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    edited July 2018
    I was running several ideas up a flag pole to see whether anyone saluted.

    EMG Geezer Butler PJ set would fit the bill nicely. It’s their passive vintage set but the J has a bit more punch and drive to it.
    horse said:
    tbh I could live without the j in the bridge, but as the plate is cut for it I was thinking that something high output / contrasting might be a useful option to have.
    I have the EMG-GZR pair in a Squier VM Precision Bass. The major contribution of the J type pickup is to dial in some "notch" the old fashioned way. This could be achieved with an active semi-parametric midrange EQ. Most of the time, the P pickup alone would suffice.

    The EMG-GZR solderless wiring harness makes switchable series/parallel coil interconnection on the P pickup impossible. The tonal versatility of one pickup can be increased with a G&L Passive Treble/Bass tone control network.


    @horse If the J pickup sound is largely surplus to requirements, it might be worth waiting for Oil City Pickups to finalise one of his latest designs. 
    Be seeing you.
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563
    Thanks guys - I think the emgs geezers may be calling me - seem to be generally well regarded, I kind of like the idea of keeping the emg link for sentimental reasons, decent price and the solder less kit means I'm more likely to actually get round to doing the swap.

    The current set up is vol, tone, and a microswitch to bring in the bridge.

    I do have to do a lot of eq in the daw with it currently, but am never really happy with the end result - I feel like it should be more straight forward.
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563
    Plus making a decision will stop me looking at that sire thread!
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    horse said:
    The current set up is vol, tone, and a microswitch to bring in the bridge.
    In that case, my recommendation is the EMG-GZR P pickup with its complete wiring harness. Replace your DPDT mini switch with a DP3T on/on/on type. If/when OCP brings his mystery pickup to market, it would go into the J rout in your bass. The mini switch would then serve as a neck/both/bridge selector.
    Be seeing you.
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563
    horse said:
    The current set up is vol, tone, and a microswitch to bring in the bridge.
    In that case, my recommendation is the EMG-GZR P pickup with its complete wiring harness. Replace your DPDT mini switch with a DP3T on/on/on type. If/when OCP brings his mystery pickup to market, it would go into the J rout in your bass. The mini switch would then serve as a neck/both/bridge selector.
     I see what you are thinking. I've not seen the emg loom - would it be easy enough to incorporate the other at a later date?

    Also, where can I read about this mystery pickup??
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    horse said:
    horse said:
    The current set up is vol, tone, and a microswitch to bring in the bridge.
    In that case, my recommendation is the EMG-GZR P pickup with its complete wiring harness. Replace your DPDT mini switch with a DP3T on/on/on type. If/when OCP brings his mystery pickup to market, it would go into the J rout in your bass. The mini switch would then serve as a neck/both/bridge selector.
     I see what you are thinking. I've not seen the emg loom - would it be easy enough to incorporate the other at a later date?

    Also, where can I read about this mystery pickup??
    The mystery pickup is the one in my thread in my latest build - he’s built me a Ric sounding pickup - he’s doing one in Jazz format which means you can have a P and a nice middy Ric bridge in one body which would be the perfect combo for what you originally described - and I suspect would balance better.

    I believe you can get a connector to solder in a trad pickup into the EMG harness
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    horse said:
     I've not seen the emg loom 


    THINKS: Does your Squier JV have a channel routed for the pickup output cables or just a drilled hole between the pickup and control cavities?

    The solderless block connector that carries the pickup output is 5mm wide. It might struggle to pass through a drilled hole.

    horse said:
    would it be easy enough to incorporate the other at a later date?
    This will involve a hybrid of soldered and solderless connections. There are several ways of achieving this. It will probably not help you if I describe these here.

    horse said:
    where can I read about this mystery pickup?
    I suggest that you PM Bridgehouse and/or TheGuitarWeasel. It's their baby.
    Be seeing you.
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563

    THINKS: Does your Squier JV have a channel routed for the pickup output cables or just a drilled hole between the pickup and control cavities?

    The solderless block connector that carries the pickup output is 5mm wide. It might struggle to pass through a drilled hole. 
     Bugger - your suspicions are correct - there's no channel. Does that push the emg into 'bad idea' territory?
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    horse said:
     Bugger - your suspicions are correct - there's no channel. Does that push the emg into 'bad idea' territory?
    Not necessarily.

    If the *tunnel* between the cavities is straight and at least 6mm wide, the block connector will pass from the pickup cavity into the control cavity. It will take patience and, possibly, forceps to persuade the block to pass through cleanly.

    Even if the drilled *tunnel* is too narrow, all is not lost. There are various ways to create hybrid wiring. This could involve modifying the ends of one or two of the EMG-supplied cables. 



    Control cavity space permitting, the least disruptive option is to use an EMG B157 Pickup Buss.

    Imagine, if you will, the EMG-GZR pickup plugged into the B157 as per Diagram #1 and the OCP mystery pickup hardwired to the soldering pads as per Diagram #3. The selector switch would be connected as per Diagram #4 except it will be a DP3T on/on/on rather than the Switchcraft toggle type.

    In the event that it were necessary to eliminate the output block connector for the GZR pickup, its cable could be hardwired to the appropriate B157 soldering pads. It could even be connected directly to the selector switch.

    The beauty of a hybrid wiring harness involving the B157 is that it can be reconfigured non-destructively at any time. 

    Be seeing you.
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  • horsehorse Frets: 1563
    I guess a b157 would fit in the empty battery compartment @Funkfingers , although it seems fairly pricey for what it is if I have to buy a full wiring kit to get one, and I'm slightly too hungover to get my head around the point at which a hybrid approach becomes less beneficial than just doing it all with traditional wiring.

    If I just bought the emg gzr for now, and couldn't get the connector through the tunnel, I believe I might able to try the technique shown in this video to remove and refit the connector?



    If I broke the connector in trying that, would there be any way to still connect the pickup, or would I need to then either buy the b157 or go for traditional pots instead?

    Thanks for your help on this btw
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    Yes, the connector removal technique will work for getting the cable through the channel.

    My personal opinion is that coaxing a good vintage tone out of any sort of active setup is difficult. The preamp always does some sort of colouring of tone - and I’m yet to hear an onboard preamp which really nails vintage tones at all. 
    On this note, I have been making a shootout recording. Even with its onboard EQ tweaked, the bass with a Duncan Pro Active P pickup has too much wiry detail. It is necessary to play more softly.

    For recording I much prefer the passive -> preamp/DI -> desk or plugin preamp as you are always starting from a raw passive output which you can always go back to. 
    Today, I have been mostly observing that the pickups delivering the classic P Bass sound are the ones based on the traditional specifications. One example, wound on the hot side and with ceramic magnets, manages to sound both believable and more aggressive if/when you dig in.

    I wish to backslide slightly on my earlier suggestion. Stick with the EMG-GZR if you use roundwound strings and occasionally down tune. I preferred laying into flatwounds through either a Duncan Antiquity or a Fender AVRI '57 pickup.
    Be seeing you.
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  • BridgehouseBridgehouse Frets: 24579
    If you went for a handwound set (which I reckon would be close to the cost of a geezer butler set) you could get them to do you a harness at the same time and embrace the full laziness of it!
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  • FunkfingersFunkfingers Frets: 14324
    The OP will have to feed the output conductors from each pickup towards the controls cavity through two drilled holes. Then, there is the matter of the mini switch location. There is a limit to how much pre-assembly is possible.

    If you went for a handwound set ...
    ... they can be calibrated for the best possible level and tonal balance.

    the cost of a geezer butler set
    The EMG-GZR PJ pair typically retails for £170 and the single P for anything between £90 and £110. I dare say that a pre-owned pair could be obtained in the latter price range.

    Be seeing you.
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