When to play 'outside'

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  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    edited July 2018
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Try playing minor pentatonic up one fret or 2 frets from root note..just use the same shape and try and make good resolution 
    Yeah I like dorian (which is the two frets up thing) but prefer playing it in the same position as the minor pent - just seems a bit more natural. So basically adding the 6th of the scale on the 7th fret of the B string.

    Also I sometimes shift the pent up a 1/2 step but can't say iI've had much success doing that. Never sounds quite right to my ears and feel it is less theoretically sound if you know what I mean (not that that always matters!) Cheers
    Check out my Blues lessons channel at:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw
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  • bingefellerbingefeller Frets: 5723
    kelpbeds said:
    Try playing harmonic minor from the 3rd of a maj chord.  e.g. C# harmonic minor over an Amaj7.

    Interesting, technically what would that be then? I guess it's modal but mixing the minor with the major thing makes it hard to figure out what it is.

    Sorry, my reply isn't correct as I was going from what Kurt Rosenwinkel told me on his forum many years ago.  I managed to find a PDF that someone sent me of the thread where I asked the question so here is the question and his reply explaining it:


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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    edited July 2018
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Try playing minor pentatonic up one fret or 2 frets from root note..just use the same shape and try and make good resolution 
    Yeah I like dorian (which is the two frets up thing) but prefer playing it in the same position as the minor pent - just seems a bit more natural. So basically adding the 6th of the scale on the 7th fret of the B string.

    Also I sometimes shift the pent up a 1/2 step but can't say iI've had much success doing that. Never sounds quite right to my ears and feel it is less theoretically sound if you know what I mean (not that that always matters!) Cheers


    Just done a quick vid of what I mean cos it's easier than talking about it
    It's starting on Cm pentatonic
    Them C diminished
    Then minor pentatonic 2 frets up 
    Then 2 frets up and down a fret and ending up on minor pentatonic again ...hope it makes sense


    vid below works ..this one doesn't
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
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  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    kelpbeds said:
    Try playing harmonic minor from the 3rd of a maj chord.  e.g. C# harmonic minor over an Amaj7.

    Interesting, technically what would that be then? I guess it's modal but mixing the minor with the major thing makes it hard to figure out what it is.

    Sorry, my reply isn't correct as I was going from what Kurt Rosenwinkel told me on his forum many years ago.  I managed to find a PDF that someone sent me of the thread where I asked the question so here is the question and his reply explaining it:


    Nice one, thanks, will have a play around with that and get back to you. All played out for today!
    Check out my Blues lessons channel at:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw
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  • kelpbedskelpbeds Frets: 181
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Try playing minor pentatonic up one fret or 2 frets from root note..just use the same shape and try and make good resolution 
    Yeah I like dorian (which is the two frets up thing) but prefer playing it in the same position as the minor pent - just seems a bit more natural. So basically adding the 6th of the scale on the 7th fret of the B string.

    Also I sometimes shift the pent up a 1/2 step but can't say iI've had much success doing that. Never sounds quite right to my ears and feel it is less theoretically sound if you know what I mean (not that that always matters!) Cheers


    Just done a quick vid of what I mean cos it's easier than talking about it
    It's starting on Cm pentatonic
    Them C diminished
    Then minor pentatonic 2 frets up 
    Then 2 frets up and down a fret and ending up on minor pentatonic again ...hope it makes sense


    vid below works ..this one doesn't
    Sweet - love it! What's the chords on the backing track? Thanks
    Check out my Blues lessons channel at:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBTSHf5NqVQDz0LzW2PC1Lw
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    edited July 2018
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Try playing minor pentatonic up one fret or 2 frets from root note..just use the same shape and try and make good resolution 
    Yeah I like dorian (which is the two frets up thing) but prefer playing it in the same position as the minor pent - just seems a bit more natural. So basically adding the 6th of the scale on the 7th fret of the B string.

    Also I sometimes shift the pent up a 1/2 step but can't say iI've had much success doing that. Never sounds quite right to my ears and feel it is less theoretically sound if you know what I mean (not that that always matters!) Cheers


    Just done a quick vid of what I mean cos it's easier than talking about it
    It's starting on Cm pentatonic
    Them C diminished
    Then minor pentatonic 2 frets up 
    Then 2 frets up and down a fret and ending up on minor pentatonic again ...hope it makes sense


    vid below works ..this one doesn't
    Sweet - love it! What's the chords on the backing track? Thanks
    its just a backing track in C minor its from youtube




    thats the backer when the guy stops playing ..

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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    That vid explains in 45 secs what a whole thread would stuggle to do! 

    In fact you seem to be changing the order of things as you repeat the bars... C pent ->  C dim -> D pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C# pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C dim -> C pent  - is that right?

    So you're emphasising the root of the 2-fret shifted pentatonic to emphasise the movement that has happened, but also using the b7 of the scale to keep it linked with home, then the diminished seems like a nice link.  Then mixing it up again.  

    Nice demonstration, thanks.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    That vid explains in 45 secs what a whole thread would stuggle to do! 

    In fact you seem to be changing the order of things as you repeat the bars... C pent ->  C dim -> D pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C# pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C dim -> C pent  - is that right?

    So you're emphasising the root of the 2-fret shifted pentatonic to emphasise the movement that has happened, but also using the b7 of the scale to keep it linked with home, then the diminished seems like a nice link.  Then mixing it up again.  

    Nice demonstration, thanks.
    Yep exactly as you said with the things used ...was just trying to show a few different ways to get outside ...it's a lot easier for me like this than talking about the different ways .. :)
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  • Barney said:
    That vid explains in 45 secs what a whole thread would stuggle to do! 

    In fact you seem to be changing the order of things as you repeat the bars... C pent ->  C dim -> D pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C# pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C dim -> C pent  - is that right?

    So you're emphasising the root of the 2-fret shifted pentatonic to emphasise the movement that has happened, but also using the b7 of the scale to keep it linked with home, then the diminished seems like a nice link.  Then mixing it up again.  

    Nice demonstration, thanks.
    Yep exactly as you said with the things used ...was just trying to show a few different ways to get outside ...it's a lot easier for me like this than talking about the different ways .. :)
    Awesome..  tab it??
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Sounds like Em to me??

    What is this Egyptian Pentatonic??  1,2,4,5,b7 ??
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • vizviz Frets: 10644
    Barney said:
    Nice
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    Barney said:
    That vid explains in 45 secs what a whole thread would stuggle to do! 

    In fact you seem to be changing the order of things as you repeat the bars... C pent ->  C dim -> D pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C# pent -> C pent -> D pent -> C dim -> C pent  - is that right?

    So you're emphasising the root of the 2-fret shifted pentatonic to emphasise the movement that has happened, but also using the b7 of the scale to keep it linked with home, then the diminished seems like a nice link.  Then mixing it up again.  

    Nice demonstration, thanks.
    Yep exactly as you said with the things used ...was just trying to show a few different ways to get outside ...it's a lot easier for me like this than talking about the different ways .. :)
    Awesome..  tab it??
    Sorry I don't have time to tab it but most of it is standard pentatonic stuff with a little bit of diminished.. they are similar ideas moved around a bit :)
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  • No worries, I thought you were sight reading it so hoped it would be easy.
    My trading feedback

    is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences saying how crazy it is?

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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    No worries, I thought you were sight reading it so hoped it would be easy.
    No just jamming it really ...
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  • jpfampsjpfamps Frets: 2723
    edited August 2018

    I usually play "outside" when I'm resolving down a 5th, eg from the V to I chord, or from the I to IV chord.

    If you look at the notes in the V chord then the 3rd and b7 resolve be a semitone when you go to the I chord, where as the root and 5th don't.

    This is easy to demonstrate. Say we are playing in G, the 3rd and b7 of the 5 chord (F# and C) then these resolve by a semitone to root (G) and 3rd (B) of the I chord.

    However the root of the V chord (D) and 5th (A) don't resolve by a semitone to any notes in the I chord.

    This is easy to hear by simply playing these notes.

    Generally when playing "outside" we are simply adding more notes that resolve by a semitone to the I.

    I don't usually think in terms of scales, so much as the tonality of the "outside" notes and how they relate to the under lying harmony.

    A common technique I use it the tri-tone sub on the V chord, ie playing Ab7 over a D7 in a ii V I in G.

    The notes of an Ab7 arpeggio give you the b5, b7, b9 and 3 when related to D7, so you have 2 "outside" notes (b5 and b9) that resolve by a semitone to the I chord.

    Now from scale analysis this would be using D altered, but I simply see it as Ab7, which for me makes things easier to understand, especially as I already know Ab7!

    Equally you could play a diminished idea based on Eb dim, which could be seen as either D7b9 or Ab7b9. Either way you are adding two more notes (Ab and Eb) that will resolve down a semitone to the I chord.
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    jpfamps said:


    Generally when playing "outside" we are simply adding more notes that resolve by a semitone to the I.


    The Egyptian has the b2 and maj7th so satisfies that requirement.  Moving up to C# pent from C is basically the same thing (b2 and maj3rd of C).  From memory the Egyptian is something like r, b2, 3, b5, 5, b6, 7.  Suitably exotic sounding. 

    @bloodandtears and I had a good chat about this at the jam over the weekend and ^ that's ^ pretty much what we concluded just by trying it out and thinking about it.  Neither of us could really define an altered scale so if somebody could explain in words of one syllable what it's used for and how it works that would be extremely helpful.  Although as @jpfamps explains well above, if it's as simple as using a 7th arpeggio one semitone above the root, I'm going to be filling my boots with that!

    So in G that arpeggio could be voiced x6457x which could be called something like Ebm6?  Which does indeed seem to resolve quite nicely to the G.  (Thinking about it some more that's pretty much a D7 with Eb in the bass).

    All good tips, and I feel like I've had a decent peek down the rabbit hole!



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  • BellycasterBellycaster Frets: 5834
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Barney said:
    kelpbeds said:
    Post some sound clips??
    Here we go. Quick one take sound clip.

    https://vocaroo.com/i/s1rFEXtpAy4F

    Am vamp on looper.

    First bit straight A pentatonic.
    Then A dorian 22 secs
    Then A egyptian pentatonic  39secs
    Then A Melodic Minor. 57 secs

    Feel free to critique!
    Try playing minor pentatonic up one fret or 2 frets from root note..just use the same shape and try and make good resolution 
    Yeah I like dorian (which is the two frets up thing) but prefer playing it in the same position as the minor pent - just seems a bit more natural. So basically adding the 6th of the scale on the 7th fret of the B string.

    Also I sometimes shift the pent up a 1/2 step but can't say iI've had much success doing that. Never sounds quite right to my ears and feel it is less theoretically sound if you know what I mean (not that that always matters!) Cheers


    Just done a quick vid of what I mean cos it's easier than talking about it
    It's starting on Cm pentatonic
    Them C diminished
    Then minor pentatonic 2 frets up 
    Then 2 frets up and down a fret and ending up on minor pentatonic again ...hope it makes sense


    vid below works ..this one doesn't
    Sweet - love it! What's the chords on the backing track? Thanks
    its just a backing track in C minor its from youtube




    thats the backer when the guy stops playing ..

    This seems to be suited to C Dorian?
    Only a Fool Would Say That.
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    @modellista the Altered Scale is mode 7 of the Melodic Minor Scale. Another way of looking at it, is to flatten every note of the major scale apart from the root note. It's great for creating tension over a functioning V chord in a ii V I for example. As @jpfamps says, you use D Altered over the D7 chord. 

    Now when you harmonise this scale you get a series of chords, I don't want to go into it too much, but rest assured that the 5th chord of a harmonised D Altered scale is Ab7, which is the tritone sub for D7 (the 3rd and 7th of D7 are the 7th and 3rd of Ab7 and that's why they can interchange).  


    So in G that arpeggio could be voiced x6457x which could be called something like Ebm6?  Which does indeed seem to resolve quite nicely to the G.  (Thinking about it some more that's pretty much a D7 with Eb in the bass).

    I'm not sure if there is a little confusion here between Ebm6 and Ebdim7? An Ebm6 arp does indeed work (as there is only one note difference), but I'd say it's really suggesting (well, pretty much is) Ebdim7 which is commonly used over the D7 (and Ab7!) to create tension. And you're also correct in looking at Edim7 as a D7 with the root moved up a semitone.  

    So over the V chord you can play a Dom7 arp a tritone away from the root, or a dim7 arp a semitone up from the root. 
       
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  • ModellistaModellista Frets: 2039
    edited August 2018
    Really appreciate the comments.  It seems to me the "quick 'n' dirty" way of doing this is playing either Ab or Db over D (being the V of G).

    This is my rough idea of how to implement this.  Actually it sounds not too bad to me.  Maybe slightly "cheating" but to my ears it's achieving the desired effects.  I even managed to throw in a diminished arpeggio thing starting on the Ab.  Twice round on straight major, twice round with Db, twice round with Ab, then some noodling.  Am I doing it vaguely right?  


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