Pentatonic 'discovery'..?

DesWalker

I’m a big fan of everything surrounding the major and minor CAGED chord shapes and the five pentatonic shapes. It all makes perfect sense to me. 

So why do some people believe this method to be a hindrance and that three notes per string is more useful ? I know nothing about the benefits of this is so any insight grately received.

Lestratcaster

I learnt both methods at ACM but I must say the CAGED system appeals more to me as I am very familiar with the shapes across the neck, so I can just adjust the intervals as I need, e.g all minor scales (pentatonic, blues, natural, etc) are minor thirds whereas majors I adjust that and the 6th/7th's.

Phil_aka_Pip

I learned the 3 nps stuff it all made sense to me whereas CAGED seemed stuck on physical patterns that constrained the music.

HansiR

I have never looked at the CAGED system at all... to be honest, I'm put off by the name as it implies being caged in and restricted... I probably should look into it to see if there's something that I can use but I'm very happy with the minor pentatonic at the moment, and I'm just starting to look into the major pentatonic too, so more than enough to keep me occupied for a while!

Phil_aka_Pip

I don't think they intended it to "cage you in", it actually stands for the 5 chord shapes on a guitar (C-shape A-shape etc). They want you to "see" your scale patterns in relation to the chord shapes so that you always know where the root is for example, and I think it is a laudable objective. IMO the 3nps stuff is slightly more abstract than that but that is also the nice thing about it, you get 7 patterns one for starting on each note of a diatonic scale and I think that makes them more general-purpose.

machak

@Phil_aka_Pip ;

I always struggled with CAGED and association with scales.....I mainly used it to visualize/find  arpeggio skeletons.

HansiR

Thanks guys... I have now started to look into the caged system for the very first time, and I see that I completely misunderstood the name 'CAGED', believing it to mean a scale, or series of notes, held rigidly within a box, or cage! What I can also see is that I have unknowingly been using parts of the caged system for years, for example, playing C-A-G-E-D major bar chords in the E shape up and down the neck, and also using the same notes within those bar chords to make up little runs, etc.  I know that there's a lot more involved than just creating movable chords based on the open major chords of C-A-G-E-D but I can at least see how valuable it would be to know all of the shapes within the CAGED system for making available a vast amount of notes for playing leads, etc. I have to, of course, look into this in much more depth but I can see the potential and it looks good... learning it is a whole different thing however! 

Rocker

There are lots of guys here who know music theory way better than I do but one thing to think about is that knowing the notes is similar to learning the alphabet.  And just as limiting as knowing the alphabet.

Being able to rhyme the alphabet is fine but it tells you nothing.  When your teacher makes up a three letter word - CAT - that the penny begins to drop.  Change one letter in CAT and it becomes CAR or RAT etc.  The letters in the alphabet are only the jigsaw pieces that make up words.  It is possible, if unlikely, that one could make up words without knowing the sounds groups of words make or what meaning is being communicated.  But it helps being shown the start [as in CAT] so that you can take it from there.

I think it is similar with music.  After learning the notes, get a teacher to show you how to play a half dozen or more: three or four note licks.  Take the intro of Wish You Were Here for example.  That can be broken down into tiny chunks small enough to learn easily and identifiable as a piece of music.  Learn the phrases/licks all over the fretboard.  Change a note or two and the lick becomes something else, it becomes yours.  Something you created.  You will learn what works and what doesn't.  You will start thinking outside the shapes and listening for the sounds of the notes and how they can be used.  In other words, you are playing music on your guitar. 

HansiR

Absolutely Rocker, I couldn't agree more! As I am actually an author I know exactly what you mean... and as far as making music goes that has, and always will be, my number one priority. I'm all for learning the building blocks but have no intention of being held back or restricted by them... many years ago I studied classical flute (Boehm) and eventually moved on to playing the 1 keyed, wooden, baroque flute because of the amazing expressiveness, alternative fingerings, and individuality of each instrument, as opposed to the modern, mass-produced Boehm flutes. It's all about the music... but it took years of study and practice to be able to let go and allow the music to flow... especially playing baroque music where musicians are expected to add their own ornamentation and phrasing. So, for now, I'm busy gathering those building blocks, I'm mainly concentrating on the minor and major pentatonic scales for the time being, trying to focus on those but at the same time taking a look at the many other things on offer. For example, I have just come across the so-called Mixolydian hourglass pattern, a 5 note movable shape that can be combined with the pentatonic shapes, and looks as if it could be a very handy pattern to add to the ever-growing collection...   

NorthernPaul

HansiR said:

Thanks guys... I have now started to look into the caged system for the very first time

I'm at a similar point myself, I'm using CAGED to try and hit more chord tones and make it sound like my improvisation is in 'chord' rather than just A Minor pentatonic at the fifth fret. It's early days, but I'm finding it quite refreshing being able to pick out the notes of the chord as they change and being able to visualise where the good notes are.

It's early days, but I don't seem to be playing the same stagnant boring crap I've been churning out for the last fifteen years or so, it sounds a bit nicer and more musical and intentional rather than random. So far it's only fifth fret stuff, but once I instinctively know where all the 1,3,5's are I really think it'll open the fretboard right up. It's also helping a lot with being able to play 'bits of chords' which I'm enjoying as I'm one of those weirdos who prefers playing chords to soloing anyway

pmbomb

this helped me start to break out of the pentatonic boxes.



another was to make up licks/solos from small boxes in the shapes, now I find I am producing melodies rather than trying to figure out where to go next. use different boxes in different places and you're learning the scales as you want to play them not as across the neck shapes.

sorry if already mentioned - a long thread.

hth.

viz

pmbomb said:

this helped me start to break out of the pentatonic boxes.



another was to make up licks/solos from small boxes in the shapes, now I find I am producing melodies rather than trying to figure out where to go next. use different boxes in different places and you're learning the scales as you want to play them not as across the neck shapes.

sorry if already mentioned - a long thread.

hth.

Can you repost and correct the video link please? (You must have edited your post)

pmbomb

@viz ah that's how that happens.

the shape is

e -------------------------------------------------10-12
   ----------------------------------8-10-11-12
   ------------------------------7-9
   -------------------5-7-8-9
   --------------5-7
E -0-3-5-6-7

it's minor blues scale in Em. That's just the minor pentatonic with an extra note - each time there are 3 contiguous notes, the blue note is the one on the middle.

aide memoire's for the blues scale which help me

* if you think of the minor pentatonic as 6 notes (if you have an octave at each end), the blue note splits them into 3 and 3 and itself is the centre of 3 contiguous notes.
* except when crossing the G to B boundary, the blue note is just diagonally (1 string & 1 fret) up OR diagonally (1 string & 1 fret down) down from the octave.
* so the blue note and the octaves make a diagonal of 3

I'm finding the minor blues easier to play around the neck than the pentatonic because those 3 in a row really help position it.

MentalSharps

Lot of good info to work through on this thread. Is it familiar to the "NeverLost" system this guy on YouTube made a video about?