Westminster terror attack - August 2018

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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    I never trust Sat Navs in London...
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11262
    57Deluxe said:
    I never trust Sat Navs in London...
    Quite right. They should bugger off back to Satnavia.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    Coming over here, stealing our directions.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    edited August 2018
    robgilmo said:
    This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot
    Yep, sure, he was just confused and misunderstood. Perhaps he was trying to give the cyclists a lift? Yep, that must be it. :)
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    quarky said:
    robgilmo said:
    This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot
    Yep, sure, he was just confused and misunderstood. Perhaps he was trying to give the cyclists a lift? Yep, that must be it. :)
    Nope, this was some twat who thought he was a terrorist, thought he had a cause and thought that the world would recognise him as such.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    Saying that I haven't even read the reports on it so I could be wrong.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    robgilmo said:
    Nope, this was some twat who thought he was a terrorist, thought he had a cause and thought that the world would recognise him as such.
    But doesn't an attempt at causing terror to further his cause make him a terrorist? Even *regardless* of his religion, skin colour, and immigration status? 

    He may have been incompetent (apparently he drove around for six hours), but his INTENT is what counts isn't it?
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    Looking at the video, he looks like he clocked the police behind him and tried to do a runner, could be a car full of drugs? A joy rider perhaps? Perhaps he has a warrant out for his arrest?
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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    robgilmo said:
    This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot, it seems nowadays if it's a person not White and English it's a terrorist attack, if for instance it's the EDL smashing up streets it isn't a terror attack, I'm not defending this guy or any other attack such as this one, but the phobia in this country towards Islam, Muslims and more often than not anyone not White and English breeds this kind of thing.


    I wouldn't agree with a lot of what you've put there, particularly how you define terrorism.

    I think the early assumption that it was an Islamic terrorist attack was fair. If we look back over the last few of years at reported incidents involving vehicles ploughing into people in public spaces, most of the perps have been non white people with an Islamic extremist nature. Its a reasonable assumption to make, whether the assumption is correct or not.

    I don't hear of any Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist extremists carrying out these attacks, but I do hear reports of attacks by Islamic extremists. So, either they aren't happening, or only the Islamic ones are being reported.

    Terrorism acc to Oxford Dictionary : The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I think its reasonable to insert "ideology" alongside "political" too.

    I'd therefore say its a not unreasonable assumption to think that this was a terrorist attack, subject to any subsequent evidence emerging, no?

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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    edited August 2018
    robgilmo said:
    Looking at the video, he looks like he clocked the police behind him and tried to do a runner, could be a car full of drugs? A joy rider perhaps? Perhaps he has a warrant out for his arrest?
    Well, we can rule out the car full of drugs angle, and the six hour ride around before kind of rules out the joyriding bit. Warrant out for his arrest? Possibly, but I don't see may other people deliberately accelerating through a group of people to smash into Parliament to get away from the Police. 

    I admire your attempt NOT to jumpt to conclusions, but I think we can safely say it is probably a terrorist.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    Snap said:
    robgilmo said:
    This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot, it seems nowadays if it's a person not White and English it's a terrorist attack, if for instance it's the EDL smashing up streets it isn't a terror attack, I'm not defending this guy or any other attack such as this one, but the phobia in this country towards Islam, Muslims and more often than not anyone not White and English breeds this kind of thing.


    I wouldn't agree with a lot of what you've put there, particularly how you define terrorism.

    I think the early assumption that it was an Islamic terrorist attack was fair. If we look back over the last few of years at reported incidents involving vehicles ploughing into people in public spaces, most of the perps have been non white people with an Islamic extremist nature. Its a reasonable assumption to make, whether the assumption is correct or not.

    I don't hear of any Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist extremists carrying out these attacks, but I do hear reports of attacks by Islamic extremists. So, either they aren't happening, or only the Islamic ones are being reported.

    Terrorism acc to Oxford Dictionary : The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I think its reasonable to insert "ideology" alongside "political" too.

    I'd therefore say its a not unreasonable assumption to think that this was a terrorist attack, subject to any subsequent evidence emerging, no?


    No, I dont agree, well I do with a lot of what you said, but, Islam and politics are two totally different things, so , a religious attack? Political perhaps but what political point are they trying to enforce? I also think we should not be recognising them as ''terrorists'' , because they are not, as I said before, when the EDL who have political aims wreck streets they are not arrested as ''terrorists'', why should this be any different? Thugs are thugs when ever country they are from. You say ideology should be inserted along side political? So political ideology? Based on extremist religious views? That's a religious ideology, not a political one.
    A Deuce , a Tele and a cup of tea.
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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    I don't recall seeing EDL supporters deliberately drive through people either to be honest.. But if they did, no doubt they would be charged as terrorists too.
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  • robgilmorobgilmo Frets: 3359
    You see, how I see it is , when you call these idiots terrorists you give them meaning, a sense of purpose, you acknowledge their cause, when you call them thugs , idiots , whatever, you dismiss their cause entirely making them look foolish, few will want to jump on their bandwagon if they feel they wont get recognition for doing so.
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  • crunchmancrunchman Frets: 11413

    I read somewhere that he wasn't known to counter terror police, but that he was known to local police where he lives.  That suggests some kind of anti-social misfit.  It wouldn't surprise me if there is a history of mental health issues.

    He's originally from Sudan, so that suggests there could be an "Islamic" element to it.

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  • SnapSnap Frets: 6256
    edited August 2018
    robgilmo said:
    Snap said:
    robgilmo said:
    This isn't a "terrorist" attack, terrorist attacks in case we have all forgotten are usually atrocities carried out by terrorist organizations fighting for their cause whatever that may be, this was some arsehold in a car who lost the plot, it seems nowadays if it's a person not White and English it's a terrorist attack, if for instance it's the EDL smashing up streets it isn't a terror attack, I'm not defending this guy or any other attack such as this one, but the phobia in this country towards Islam, Muslims and more often than not anyone not White and English breeds this kind of thing.


    I wouldn't agree with a lot of what you've put there, particularly how you define terrorism.

    I think the early assumption that it was an Islamic terrorist attack was fair. If we look back over the last few of years at reported incidents involving vehicles ploughing into people in public spaces, most of the perps have been non white people with an Islamic extremist nature. Its a reasonable assumption to make, whether the assumption is correct or not.

    I don't hear of any Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist extremists carrying out these attacks, but I do hear reports of attacks by Islamic extremists. So, either they aren't happening, or only the Islamic ones are being reported.

    Terrorism acc to Oxford Dictionary : The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. I think its reasonable to insert "ideology" alongside "political" too.

    I'd therefore say its a not unreasonable assumption to think that this was a terrorist attack, subject to any subsequent evidence emerging, no?


    No, I dont agree, well I do with a lot of what you said, but, Islam and politics are two totally different things, so , a religious attack? Political perhaps but what political point are they trying to enforce? I also think we should not be recognising them as ''terrorists'' , because they are not, as I said before, when the EDL who have political aims wreck streets they are not arrested as ''terrorists'', why should this be any different? Thugs are thugs when ever country they are from. You say ideology should be inserted along side political? So political ideology? Based on extremist religious views? That's a religious ideology, not a political one.


    I think you misconstrued my argument on terrorism, so to be clear, ideology whatever the type, not exclusively political ideology, so yes of course, religious ideology. That was my point really (in respect of the Oxf definition) - it doesn't have to be just a political ideology, certainly not in the current climate of regular Islamic terror attacks.

    I'd put anyone using violence and fear to convey an ideology in the terrorist bucket: I don't see how you couldn't tbh.


    I don't think the assumption that its terrorism is driven by the perps colour either. Its the means - the driving of a van into an area full of pedestrians. By comparison, when that fella (white) drove into crowds in London, to kill muslims, that was quickly classed as a terror attack.

    Someone drives a van into pedestrians, in a busy city, outside a notable landmark. In all likelihood, based on past events, its highly likely its an Islamic terrorist. History, and very recent history, would indicate that. Similarly if a suicide bomber acts somewhere, there is a very high chance, again based on recent history, that its going to be an Islamic terrorist. So, not surprisingly the initial thought is this.

    Sad state of affairs, but this is the current way of the world.

    In the 70s and 80s, even 90s, when a bomb went off in a British city, the first thought was - IRA terror attack. Same argument

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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    edited August 2018
    There was a case of somebody running over some people on the pavement in Birmingham not long back, in the early hours of the morning. That wasn't considered terrorism, that was considered to be a nutter (when it was reported at all).

    And let's not forget. More people, significantly more, died in the last few years from being fat than from terrorism, certainly in this country if not in the world in general. So one lone nutter with some delusions of a greater cause should not cause people to fear a terrorist threat surely?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71960
    quarky said:
    I don't recall seeing EDL supporters deliberately drive through people either to be honest.. But if they did, no doubt they would be charged as terrorists too.
    You have a short memory...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finsbury_Park_attack

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  • CHRISB50CHRISB50 Frets: 4290
    edited August 2018
    quarky said:
    I don't recall seeing EDL supporters deliberately drive through people either to be honest.. But if they did, no doubt they would be charged as terrorists too.


    Wasn't Darren Osbourne an EDL supporter?

    The guy who drove his truck into the crowd outside the mosque in Finsbury park (from the BBC):

    A man who drove a van into a crowd of Muslims near a London mosque has been found guilty of murder.

    Darren Osborne, 48, ploughed into people in Finsbury Park in June last year, killing Makram Ali, 51, and injuring nine others.

    Osborne, from Cardiff, was also found guilty of attempted murder and is due to be sentenced on Friday.

    Prosecutors said they were "clear throughout that this was a terrorist attack".

    The jury took an hour to return the verdict at Woolwich Crown Court after a nine day trial.

    Osborne started following Tommy Robinson, one of the founders of the English Defence League (EDL), and other far-right leaders on social media, in the fortnight before the attack.

    Mr Robinson sent him a group email saying: "There is a nation within a nation forming beneath the surface of the UK. It is a nation built on hatred, on violence and on Islam."

    He was obviously and rightly considered a terrorist.


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  • quarkyquarky Frets: 2777
    robgilmo said:
    You see, how I see it is , when you call these idiots terrorists you give them meaning, a sense of purpose, you acknowledge their cause, when you call them thugs , idiots , whatever, you dismiss their cause entirely making them look foolish, few will want to jump on their bandwagon if they feel they wont get recognition for doing so.
    I understand that too, but I don't think it would work well in a "free" society, and actually, I don't think it helps to deter much at all really. These people might just do it anyway out of frustration, and hiding elements erodes trust form the public. 
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  • 57Deluxe57Deluxe Frets: 7329
    one less Uber at least...
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