What's the difference?

Warblington

Hi all,
I'm new to the forum and new to acoustic guitar.I've played classical guitar for a few years and reached a lower intermediate level.I've decided I'd like to move to acoustic guitar and use a fingerpicking style. I don't have any set style of music in mind although I'd like to learn the alternating bass, thumb picking technique like travis, Atkins etc..I have a little Martin LX1E which I tend to noodle on.I've decided to go for a decent acoustic guitar.I have ruled out dreadnoughts and parlour guitars but I'm a bit mystified over the OM,000,00 and 0 (is that classed as a parlour guitar?).I know various makers make claims about their various models but before I try anything out could anyone out there tell me what to be aware of or expect in the different models.I won't be doing a lot of strumming hence ruling out dreadnoughts.I won't be playing publicly,I'm looking for comfort, ease of play, volume, sustain, clarity and note separation.I'm assuming each model has different characteristics so I'd value your observations on what those are.Sorry if the question is a bit woolly but any opinions would be welcome.

Lewy

This might be a helpful starting point:

Warblington

Thanks Lewy,that's awesome.I love the fact that he did the mahogany and rosewood comparison as well. I hadn't considered that as much as the shape issue.As you said, very helpful, thanks again.

ICBM

The other big difference not shown there is that although OMs and 000s are the same body shape usually, OMs are longer scale and often have wider necks and string spacing, as well as sometimes different bracing. That means an OM doesn't sound the same as a 000, as well as feeling quite different.

Don't forget maple as a body wood either - it has a reputation for being very bright, but really it isn't, it's more like a tighter, less boomy rosewood (to me) and is very overlooked for some reason. Other woods like walnut are also sometimes used.

Jimbro66

Interesting that you are thinking of going from classical guitar to Travis/Atkins picking @Warblington. Although both are finger-style they are very different techniques. You are probably accustomed to a wide flat fretboard and your thumb firmly planted on the rear of the neck. To play Travis/Atkins style 'properly' you will need to be able to use your thumb to fret the bottom two strings, i.e. wrapped around the neck. That means that unless you have very big hands, like Travis did, you will want to avoid wide fretboards. I personally find a 1 3/4" nut just a little too wide for that style of playing and prefer 1 11/16", depending on neck profile. It's a thing to bear in mind when you are buying.

For acoustic playing I use an Atkin OM which is just about ideal.

Warblington

Thanks ICBM and Jimbro66.
I wondered why OMs and 000’s differed but didn’t realise different scale lengths produced different sounds.You both also mention neck width.I have large hands and would be looking to go for the 1 3/4" nut width.Anything after a classical guitar neck seems to disappear in my mitts.I appreciate the difference in technique but I'm quite comfortable wrapping my thumb around the neck.Nevertheless ,a point I wouldn't have considered otherwise.With respect to tone woods I do prefer rosewood.In the video above I prefer it over mahogany and its something I'm familiar with. I'm not sure I would like maple.I've come across it on flamenco guitars, to me it is too stark and snappy.I'm also someone who values an instruments aesthetics and for me rosewood also wins out. (my avatar pic is a guitar I made myself using BR).Jim,you mention Atkin guitars, they are one of two makes I'm interested in ,the other being Martin. Atkin guitars seem to attract great reviews.I have eyed the 00 size which on my understanding is more classical guitar sized.I'm selling a couple of guitars to fund this change in direction after which there's nothing else for it but to try them out.I'm sure something will jump out at me.Thank you for your replies ,I appreciate it.

ICBM

Warblington said:

Thanks ICBM and Jimbro66.
I wondered why OMs and 000’s differed but didn’t realise different scale lengths produced different sounds.You both also mention neck width.I have large hands and would be looking to go for the 1 3/4" nut width.Anything after a classical guitar neck seems to disappear in my mitts.I appreciate the difference in technique but I'm quite comfortable wrapping my thumb around the neck.Nevertheless ,a point I wouldn't have considered otherwise.With respect to tone woods I do prefer rosewood.In the video above I prefer it over mahogany and its something I'm familiar with. I'm not sure I would like maple.I've come across it on flamenco guitars, to me it is too stark and snappy.I'm also someone who values an instruments aesthetics and for me rosewood also wins out. (my avatar pic is a guitar I made myself using BR).Jim,you mention Atkin guitars, they are one of two makes I'm interested in ,the other being Martin. Atkin guitars seem to attract great reviews.I have eyed the 00 size which on my understanding is more classical guitar sized.I'm selling a couple of guitars to fund this change in direction after which there's nothing else for it but to try them out.I'm sure something will jump out at me.Thank you for your replies ,I appreciate it.

In that case I would definitely recommend an OM. It's very slightly larger than a classical, but not enough to make much difference.

I'm not familiar with Atkin, but the Martin OM-21 will be everything you want - it's a rosewood body with very plain trim. I had one, which I loved the sound of, but I couldn't get on with the neck width and string spacing as I have small hands and taught myself to play 'folk' style with my thumb around the neck (yes I know ). I sold it to a friend who is a proper classical guitarist and it's absolutely perfect for her.

Warblington

ICBM said:

Warblington said:

Thanks ICBM and Jimbro66.
I wondered why OMs and 000’s differed but didn’t realise different scale lengths produced different sounds.You both also mention neck width.I have large hands and would be looking to go for the 1 3/4" nut width.Anything after a classical guitar neck seems to disappear in my mitts.I appreciate the difference in technique but I'm quite comfortable wrapping my thumb around the neck.Nevertheless ,a point I wouldn't have considered otherwise.With respect to tone woods I do prefer rosewood.In the video above I prefer it over mahogany and its something I'm familiar with. I'm not sure I would like maple.I've come across it on flamenco guitars, to me it is too stark and snappy.I'm also someone who values an instruments aesthetics and for me rosewood also wins out. (my avatar pic is a guitar I made myself using BR).Jim,you mention Atkin guitars, they are one of two makes I'm interested in ,the other being Martin. Atkin guitars seem to attract great reviews.I have eyed the 00 size which on my understanding is more classical guitar sized.I'm selling a couple of guitars to fund this change in direction after which there's nothing else for it but to try them out.I'm sure something will jump out at me.Thank you for your replies ,I appreciate it.

In that case I would definitely recommend an OM. It's very slightly larger than a classical, but not enough to make much difference.

I'm not familiar with Atkin, but the Martin OM-21 will be everything you want - it's a rosewood body with very plain trim. I had one, which I loved the sound of, but I couldn't get on with the neck width and string spacing as I have small hands and taught myself to play 'folk' style with my thumb around the neck (yes I know ). I sold it to a friend who is a proper classical guitarist and it's absolutely perfect for her.

I had discounted the Atkin OM as it has the smaller string spacing 1 11/16' and assumed the same with the Martin.You're right the Martin is 1 3/4' which is what I'm after.I'll definitely trial it.thanks.

earwighoney

Warblington said:

Thanks ICBM and Jimbro66.
I wondered why OMs and 000’s differed but didn’t realise different scale lengths produced different sounds.You both also mention neck width.I have large hands and would be looking to go for the 1 3/4" nut width.Anything after a classical guitar neck seems to disappear in my mitts.I appreciate the difference in technique but I'm quite comfortable wrapping my thumb around the neck.Nevertheless ,a point I wouldn't have considered otherwise.With respect to tone woods I do prefer rosewood.In the video above I prefer it over mahogany and its something I'm familiar with. I'm not sure I would like maple.I've come across it on flamenco guitars, to me it is too stark and snappy.I'm also someone who values an instruments aesthetics and for me rosewood also wins out. (my avatar pic is a guitar I made myself using BR).Jim,you mention Atkin guitars, they are one of two makes I'm interested in ,the other being Martin. Atkin guitars seem to attract great reviews.I have eyed the 00 size which on my understanding is more classical guitar sized.I'm selling a couple of guitars to fund this change in direction after which there's nothing else for it but to try them out.I'm sure something will jump out at me.Thank you for your replies ,I appreciate it.

Classical guitars have a lower bout width of 14" or so, as does a 00.  The upper bout of a 12 fret 00 is a bit smaller than one of a classical guitar though so it feels a bit different on the knee. 

IMO, if you play fingerstyle then a 12 fret 00 (or even 12 fret 000) is very good match for a guitarist who plays nylon strings mainly as they are likely to have a wide nut be it 1 13/16" or 1 7/8".  A slight bit of caution for 12 fret 000's as they might have a bit more bass and I find they can often be a bit too much for fingerpicking.   

Aside from the nut width, keep an eye out for string spacing at the saddle.  For classical guitars they have a fairly wide string spacing at the saddle around 60mm or so, whilst a lot of acoustics will have ones around the 54mm or 55mm wide and it does make a difference. 

Btw, a true 'parlour' guitar is one smaller than an 0, which would have 12" lower bout but a lot of people seem to use the term to describe any guitar smaller than OM it seems. 

Warblington

Earwighoney,
Thanks for your reply,you’ve shed even more light on this subject. I’ll certainly take account of the string spacing at the saddle.Typically a classical guitar is 650mm scale and a  52 mm nut. Everything else is about tonewoods ,bracing and construction.There are so many more variables in the acoustic guitar field it seems to me. Thanks for the steer on the 000 12 fret. I don’t want an overpowering bass response, I’m after clarity and balance. I’m definitely seeing things more clearly now, this is just the advice I set out for.Thanks.

BigLicks67

I have a Martin OM with a 1 3/4 (44.5mm)nut width and have no trouble with the thumb around the neck technique. That's with a big neck profile and medium size hands. So, with a large span you shouldn't have any problems. I don't know what your budget is, but a Lowden S series guitar might suit you. You can get them with a 45mm nut width and a 630mm scale, the string tension and vibration on a short scale steel string is closer to the feel of nylon string guitar IMHO.

Warblington

Hi Biglicks67,
I didn't think I could afford a Lowden but tbh I'm not over keen on their appearance.The thing that prompted my original post was the fact I was looking at Martins and Atkin guitars.It seems that Atkin guitars are based on a similar sizing code so it's fairly easy to make a direct comparison.I have a budget of circa £2.5k but that depends on a couple of sales I need to make.You're not the first to mention a Martin OM and it's definitely on my try list.Many thanks.

bermudianbrit

I'm an atkins/Emmanuel thumbpicker and am selling a Taylor 714CE if you fancy a crack at that. The neck is 1/4 and I can attest to how good it is for that style...I learned Cannonball Rag on it after all lol. Its RW back and sides, onboard electronics, the hole deal.

Warblington

bermudianbrit said:

I'm an atkins/Emmanuel thumbpicker and am selling a Taylor 714CE if you fancy a crack at that. The neck is 1/4 and I can attest to how good it is for that style...I learned Cannonball Rag on it after all lol. Its RW back and sides, onboard electronics, the hole deal.

Hi,
Thanks but I'm looking for a smaller guitar than grand auditorium.I don't want electrics or the cutaway either.I think once you start with an idea in your head about what you want, it's pretty hard to change.

TheBigDipper

I'm an ex-classical player and still mainly use the classical left hand position most of the time, plus a classical right hand when finger picking - unless the music flows better using a flat right hand and a “side of the right thumb nail with the heel of the hand to mute” approach. 

The Atkins OM models are lovely. I found the Martin OMs to sound a bit flat in comparison. I bought a Brook Taw (Spruce top, Bubinga back/sides) and love it. 

Both the Brook and the Atkins benefit from a light touch. 

Warblington

TheBigDipper said:

I'm an ex-classical player and still mainly use the classical left hand position most of the time, plus a classical right hand when finger picking - unless the music flows better using a flat right hand and a “side of the right thumb nail with the heel of the hand to mute” approach. 

The Atkins OM models are lovely. I found the Martin OMs to sound a bit flat in comparison. I bought a Brook Taw (Spruce top, Bubinga back/sides) and love it. 

Both the Brook and the Atkins benefit from a light touch. 

Hi,
Since I started the thread, I've spoken to Alister Atkin. We talked about my previous style and what I was looking for.He thinks I'd be best suited to the 00037 model .It is the same shape as the OM but has a wider nut.At the moment I can't find one locally to try out, plus I'm raising the funds through a couple of sales.That said,Atkin guitars do have a very good reputation and you're another one praising them.I'm not over familiar with Brook guitars but shall now have a look.Thanks for reply and good to hear from a classical player.

earwighoney

Warblington said:

Hi,
Since I started the thread, I've spoken to Alister Atkin. We talked about my previous style and what I was looking for.He thinks I'd be best suited to the 00037 model .It is the same shape as the OM but has a wider nut.At the moment I can't find one locally to try out, plus I'm raising the funds through a couple of sales.That said,Atkin guitars do have a very good reputation and you're another one praising them.I'm not over familiar with Brook guitars but shall now have a look.Thanks for reply and good to hear from a classical player.

Try an Atkins out if you can before you buy, despite their great reputation I myself didn't really take the few of their guitars I tried which is nothing against the quality of their work but I myself didn't take to their guitars.  As for the 000-37, it has a 45mm which is about standard for OM's normally.  The 1 11/16" wide nuts for the other OM's is a feature not really seen across the board much.  

Another guitar maker, I'd recommend looking out who makes 'traditional' sounding acoustics in the Martin style of things are Furch who have new models new in your price range.  If you are happy to look for a second hand guitar, then you might be to find a Collings.   A new Brook would be bang on your budget and if you order directly from them you have the guitar built to your exact specifications. 

I seem to spend most of my time playing nylon strings not classical, but flamenco and my main guitar has a neck of 53mm wide at the nut, 650mm scale and about 22mm thick at the first fret. It used to take a bit of adjustment to play other guitars of mine with smaller necks but the more I practice the easier I am finding it to switch between other guitars which have thinner necks, narrower nuts and so on. One thing which is a must for my non nylon string guitars are necks with a bit more meat to the profile as I have found my technique for my fretting hand is for the thumb to sit on the centre of the back of the neck as I do when I play flamenco guitars and with thinner necks my hands seem to cramp up. 

Warblington

earwighoney said:

Warblington said:

Hi,
Since I started the thread, I've spoken to Alister Atkin. We talked about my previous style and what I was looking for.He thinks I'd be best suited to the 00037 model .It is the same shape as the OM but has a wider nut.At the moment I can't find one locally to try out, plus I'm raising the funds through a couple of sales.That said,Atkin guitars do have a very good reputation and you're another one praising them.I'm not over familiar with Brook guitars but shall now have a look.Thanks for reply and good to hear from a classical player.

Try an Atkins out if you can before you buy, despite their great reputation I myself didn't really take the few of their guitars I tried which is nothing against the quality of their work but I myself didn't take to their guitars.  As for the 000-37, it has a 45mm which is about standard for OM's normally.  The 1 11/16" wide nuts for the other OM's is a feature not really seen across the board much.  

Another guitar maker, I'd recommend looking out who makes 'traditional' sounding acoustics in the Martin style of things are Furch who have new models new in your price range.  If you are happy to look for a second hand guitar, then you might be to find a Collings.   A new Brook would be bang on your budget and if you order directly from them you have the guitar built to your exact specifications. 

I seem to spend most of my time playing nylon strings not classical, but flamenco and my main guitar has a neck of 53mm wide at the nut, 650mm scale and about 22mm thick at the first fret. It used to take a bit of adjustment to play other guitars of mine with smaller necks but the more I practice the easier I am finding it to switch between other guitars which have thinner necks, narrower nuts and so on. One thing which is a must for my non nylon string guitars are necks with a bit more meat to the profile as I have found my technique for my fretting hand is for the thumb to sit on the centre of the back of the neck as I do when I play flamenco guitars and with thinner necks my hands seem to cramp up. 

Hi,
You're right, the Atkin OM model has a smaller nut width. The more I contemplate my purchase the more I err towards British made.If I'm going for a decent guitar I'm going to veer away from second hand.Also,I'm going to avoid mass produced factory stuff.I've looked at Furch but the build process leaves me cold.I'm sure they are very good instruments but I'd prefer something produced by a small team or individual luthier.Having looked at your post and that of BigDipper (a former classical player like myself)I am now taking a SERIOUS look at Brook guitars which tick a number of boxes for me.Not least the ability to specify certain things without it becoming a "custom build".they're not going to break the bank either.I've commissioned classical guitars in the past and there's nothing like knowing your instrument is being made on an artisans workbench as opposed to flying off a conveyor belt.(If you know what I mean).Thanks for another solid bit of advice.

TheBigDipper

Warblington said:

earwighoney said:

<snip>

You're right, the Atkin OM model has a smaller nut width. The more I contemplate my purchase the more I err towards British made.If I'm going for a decent guitar I'm going to veer away from second hand.Also,I'm going to avoid mass produced factory stuff.I've looked at Furch but the build process leaves me cold.I'm sure they are very good instruments but I'd prefer something produced by a small team or individual luthier.Having looked at your post and that of BigDipper (a former classical player like myself)I am now taking a SERIOUS look at Brook guitars which tick a number of boxes for me.Not least the ability to specify certain things without it becoming a "custom build".they're not going to break the bank either.I've commissioned classical guitars in the past and there's nothing like knowing your instrument is being made on an artisans workbench as opposed to flying off a conveyor belt.(If you know what I mean).Thanks for another solid bit of advice.

I'd recommend that you go and visit the Brook workshop (you really couldn't call it a factory) if you're thinking of getting a bespoke guitar. I've been, but after my purchase.

I bought my Taw from Project Music in Exeter. It was an unexpected purchase, as I was just visiting for research purposes (having decided I liked an Atkins OM and a Huss & Dalton OM I'd played elsewhere). They had several to try out - including two Taws made with different woods - and I couldn't stop playing the one I eventually bought. No regrets. I'm sure I would have been happy with the other two I liked, as well. 

I'm too impatient to wait for a bespoke guitar... 

Warblington

I've spoken to the guys at Brook guitars. They've invited me to visit the workshop.Their waiting list is 12 months though.I don't think I could be waiting that long (at my age).Project Music have a Brook Taw in stock which I might seek to get on approval.I've still got to sell a couple of my guitars though.Either way,I have a much clearer idea of what I'm after thanks to all the replies.