I might be done with electro-acoustics

bluechargeboy

I've been gigging with electros for 5 years now (Takamine, and Larivee with Baggs Element StagePro onboard preamp). The well-abused Takamine had become a nightmare through loud rigs due to feedback, so I got me one of these (Dimarzio Angel):

And one of these (Fishman Platinum Pro EQ):

Gigged with this setup last night and damn! I am very pleased indeed with the sound. I ran the preamp with EQ mostly flat, compressor dialled in, and it sounded sweet. No quack. I am seriously considering an identical pickup for my Larivee and ditching onboard preamps and USTs altogether.

Moe_Zambeek

Interesting. I’m not a big fan of piezos but thought these would be less acoustic-sounding. Obviously not!

bluechargeboy

@Moe_Zambeek I play pretty hard with plectrum (in case the pic didn't make that patently obvious!) and I think that is when the piezo starts to struggle. I am in a lively band playing fairly fast music, so my focus is different to a solo artist or a fingerstyle person. I'm mainly going for not-feeding-back-and-not-terrible-sounding.

I was looking back through some old band vids and I realised my favourite guitar sound was from the times when the onboard electronics were broken and I was using my cheap Seymour Duncan Woody emergency backup!

stickyfiddle

Wis awarded. I've never found an onboard system that sounds anywhere near as good as a separate pickup & preamp (or even just careful EQ at the desk)

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Wis awarded. I've never found an onboard system that sounds anywhere near as good as a separate pickup & preamp (or even just careful EQ at the desk)

I've said this before and I will again...

Electro-acoustics are the work of Satan.

By putting the electronics in the guitar, you are building potential obsolescence and the risk of failure into a guitar which will in most cases easily outlast the technology, making it impossible to replace without doing major work - finding a newer control box which fits the hole(s) from the old one is usually very difficult. The failure rate may not be that high, but I see enough of them to put me off the whole concept. Even if it doesn't fail, will you want what was considered a good amplified sound twenty years ago, just when the guitar is starting to age nicely?

It's far better to put just the pickup - a simple undersaddle strip or an internal body contact sensor, or a magnetic soundhole pickup - in the guitar with an endpin jack. If you want it buffered the most common type has the preamp mounted on the jack and the battery velcro'ed to the neck block, which is OK, and having something like a simple volume control under the rim of the soundhole isn't too invasive. Then, do all the extra processing you want in an external preamp/pedal etc - which can easily be replaced or upgraded at any time just by unplugging the cable.

(One exception is actually Takamine, who at least for now have stuck with a decision to keep the same square push-in unit that they've used since the 90s for all future preamps, so it should be possible to replace or update them - although replacing the pickup is harder.)

Soundmen also don't like electros - the idea of giving the player the power to drastically alter the out-front sound from the guitar doesn't go down well - and what you hear on stage through the monitors might not bear any resemblance to how it sounds through the PA (much more drastically than with a mic'ed electric guitar amp for some reason) and there's a great temptation to fiddle with it! So the soundman will usually just ask you to set your onboard preamp flat and not touch it... in which case what's the point of having it?

Funkfingers

bluechargeboy said:
I am seriously considering ... ditching ... USTs altogether.

I did exactly that about six months ago. My one minor regret was having to sort out a new saddle to replace the one that had been dressed away to accommodate a piezo transducer strip.

bluechargeboy

ICBM said:

Soundmen also don't like electros - the idea of giving the player the power to drastically alter the out-front sound from the guitar doesn't go down well - and what you hear on stage through the monitors might not bear any resemblance to how it sounds through the PA (much more drastically than with a mic'ed electric guitar amp for some reason) and there's a great temptation to fiddle with it! So the soundman will usually just ask you to set your onboard preamp flat and not touch it... in which case what's the point of having it?

I have pretty much always set my onboard preamp flat, with perhaps a little treble reduction to mitigate "sound guy with knackered hearing who thinks the treble needs to go up to 11" syndrome.

DulcetJones

Once I discovered the "flat eq" concept I managed to use elctroacoustics with no problem, especially with nylon string guitars.    My bandmate has the Fishman EQ pictured above and plugs an  electroacoustic Taylor into it with great success.  I'm sure better sound can be achieved with the Dimarzio Angel and the Fishman but for the small rooms we play no one ever complains about the sound .   I'm currently using an 80's Takemine electric classical and  a new Fender Paramount steel string flat top.  But rest assured, if I could afford it......

bermudianbrit

It may be worth noting that I've found that most cutaways are electros. Those two seem to go together for some reason. So sometimes, a player would end up with an electro simply for the cutaway.

Moe_Zambeek

What impact does the actual Guitar have on the sound when using the mag pickups? They’re mainly getting the string, so does the body size / quality have an impact?

ICBM

bermudianbrit said:

It may be worth noting that I've found that most cutaways are electros. Those two seem to go together for some reason. So sometimes, a player would end up with an electro simply for the cutaway.

Presumably because it’s assumed that if you play high up on the neck, you will need amplification.

I once tried to order a Taylor cutaway guitar with no electrics... they wanted about £500 *more* than for the electro.

(To be fair I did want to put a pickup in it, just not the factory system.)

bluechargeboy

bermudianbrit said:

It may be worth noting that I've found that most cutaways are electros. Those two seem to go together for some reason. So sometimes, a player would end up with an electro simply for the cutaway.

Yes, I would not buy a guitar without a cutaway, and I came to the same conclusion. although if you plan to put your own in, you just have to worry about the guitar proper and not whatever crappy electronics come with it.

stickyfiddle

Moe_Zambeek said:

What impact does the actual Guitar have on the sound when using the mag pickups? They’re mainly getting the string, so does the body size / quality have an impact?

Much more than you'd think, because the pickup is attached to the top, which is also vibrating, and hence the whole thing works as a complete system. 

Also bear in mind that many of the higher end pickups like the LR Baggs stuff include either a second stacked coil (eg M1A) which moves as the top vibrates, or an actual microphone (Anthem), so you can get a mix of the two sounds

TheMarlin

I hate the sound of electro acoustics.  

BigLicks67

stickyfiddle said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

What impact does the actual Guitar have on the sound when using the mag pickups? They’re mainly getting the string, so does the body size / quality have an impact?

Much more than you'd think, because the pickup is attached to the top, which is also vibrating, and hence the whole thing works as a complete system. 

Also bear in mind that many of the higher end pickups like the LR Baggs stuff include either a second stacked coil (eg M1A) which moves as the top vibrates, or an actual microphone (Anthem), so you can get a mix of the two sounds

Although, you could argue that the top will vibrate less with a sound hole pickup attached to it.

stickyfiddle

BigLicks67 said:

stickyfiddle said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

What impact does the actual Guitar have on the sound when using the mag pickups? They’re mainly getting the string, so does the body size / quality have an impact?

Much more than you'd think, because the pickup is attached to the top, which is also vibrating, and hence the whole thing works as a complete system. 

Also bear in mind that many of the higher end pickups like the LR Baggs stuff include either a second stacked coil (eg M1A) which moves as the top vibrates, or an actual microphone (Anthem), so you can get a mix of the two sounds

Although, you could argue that the top will vibrate less with a sound hole pickup attached to it.

Yes, of course. My point is more about it being a complex system - you get a lot of harmonic content from a pickup that you don't from a piezo, because by definition a piezo is located under the fixed point of the string. Obviously that's a simplification, since the top is moving as well, but compared to a pickup that's not directly under the saddle it's a different set of vibrations being picked up and sent down the cable.

In reality, you have to accept that you're never going to get *exactly* the sound of the guitar alone to come out of a set of PA speakers; even if you use a combination of close and room mics it's always going to be a slight compromise. But those 2 Baggs pickups get you really close. (other acoustic pickups are available, I just haven't tried them!).

StuartMac290

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

Wis awarded. I've never found an onboard system that sounds anywhere near as good as a separate pickup & preamp (or even just careful EQ at the desk)

I've said this before and I will again...

Electro-acoustics are the work of Satan.

By putting the electronics in the guitar, you are building potential obsolescence and the risk of failure into a guitar which will in most cases easily outlast the technology, making it impossible to replace without doing major work - finding a newer control box which fits the hole(s) from the old one is usually very difficult. The failure rate may not be that high, but I see enough of them to put me off the whole concept. Even if it doesn't fail, will you want what was considered a good amplified sound twenty years ago, just when the guitar is starting to age nicely?

It's far better to put just the pickup - a simple undersaddle strip or an internal body contact sensor, or a magnetic soundhole pickup - in the guitar with an endpin jack. If you want it buffered the most common type has the preamp mounted on the jack and the battery velcro'ed to the neck block, which is OK, and having something like a simple volume control under the rim of the soundhole isn't too invasive. Then, do all the extra processing you want in an external preamp/pedal etc - which can easily be replaced or upgraded at any time just by unplugging the cable.

(One exception is actually Takamine, who at least for now have stuck with a decision to keep the same square push-in unit that they've used since the 90s for all future preamps, so it should be possible to replace or update them - although replacing the pickup is harder.)

Soundmen also don't like electros - the idea of giving the player the power to drastically alter the out-front sound from the guitar doesn't go down well - and what you hear on stage through the monitors might not bear any resemblance to how it sounds through the PA (much more drastically than with a mic'ed electric guitar amp for some reason) and there's a great temptation to fiddle with it! So the soundman will usually just ask you to set your onboard preamp flat and not touch it... in which case what's the point of having it?

Interesting. What system DO you recommend? I have a friend who just inherited a 70s Martin dread, and I suggested you to fit a pickup for him.

bluechargeboy

I actually went with the Dimarzio because it has less body-sensing capability than yer M1A, M80 etc and is therefore ostensibly better for feedback when played through a Jah Babylon sound system with subs everywhere!

You definitely can hear the difference between a dreadnought and a smaller-bodied guitar even with a mag pickup. It doesn't seem to affect the acoustic tone as much a rubber bung in the soundhole...

I read a quote along the lines of:

"With electric guitars, amplification is where the fun starts; with acoustic guitars, amplification is where the fun ends."

crunchman

BigLicks67 said:

Although, you could argue that the top will vibrate less with a sound hole pickup attached to it.

This

If you want to sound good acoustically, then avoid a sound hole pickup.  It definitely affects the acoustic sound.  I made the mistake of putting a Fishman Rare Earth into two guitars.  It's ok if you put it in for a gig and take it out again, but I'd never permanently mount one into a guitar again.

To my ears, a UST with good outboard processing sounds better than a magnetic pickup anyway.  Something like the TC Bodyrez pedal gets rid of a lot of the piezo quack.

danishbacon

Check out schertler's mag6 and mic option if you're interested in dual source.

ICBM

StuartMac290 said:

What system DO you recommend? I have a friend who just inherited a 70s Martin dread, and I suggested you to fit a pickup for him.

K&K Pure Mini if you don't mind drilling out the endpin hole for a jack.