Gotoh 510 FST Mechanism Tremolo Block - very, very impressed

jaymenon

Re: tuning instability on Stratocaster type guitars.

The effect of the following friction points is well recognised
- tuning machine posts
     - sloppy windings
     - locking machine heads (minimising windings around the post)
- string trees
- nut slots

Perhaps less well recognised are issues around the bridge. IMO there is perhaps an inordinate amount of focus on the ability (or otherwise) of the bridge to return the 'zero point'.  From what I have observed, even a 6 screw tremolo returns to zero point beautifully...

What I have found is that issues of the strings 'hanging' at the saddles and baseplate are very relevant.

With a Wilkinson VS100 - here's a demonstration of the tuning instability on my previous strat. 
The neck has locking tuners. no string trees and beautifully cut and lubricated nut slots.

https://soundcloud.com/jaymenon/my-strat-tuning-instability


So I went with a Non-Fine Tuner Floyd Rose body - I used the same Strat neck.

This pretty much eliminated the tuning instability, since the strings were locked at the bridge saddles and tuning machines, with the only point of friction being the slots on the bone nut. Unfortunately the body is a bit too heavy for me, and no one seems interested to buy it - but that's a different story...

I then recently tried out a Gotoh 510 with the FST block. On this, the string makes no contact with the baseplate but instead travels directly from the ball end to the saddle.
[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/TjJOewp.jpg)

The block is machined away
[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/IghK97t.jpg)

The base plate has elongated slots rather than holes.
[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/mk6517w.jpg)

On a conventional strat tremolo, the string exits at the top of the baseplate and makes a 45° angle forwards on its way to the saddle. This bend usually remains as a 'memory point' on the string which retains that deformity even after being removed (we've all seen that). I believe that this is a major point of friction.

[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/suUowJ7.jpg)

'Memory points' on the strings removed from a Strat
[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/59IY33j.jpg)


So with the FST mechanism there are only two points of potential friction (saddles and nut).

...and the tuning instability is very impressive indeed, rivalling that of the non-fine tuner floyd rose.

DrBob

That is very very interesting, thanks for sharing chap !

i_b_tulloch

@jaymenon ;Resurrecting an old thread here. I am looking to replace a 6 screw Charvel Brass V Trem with a Chrome vintage style trem. I like the Gotoh 510, and the FST system sounds good for stability. I also have a set of the new Wilkinson locking saddles, which should hopefully make the Gotoh FST even better, although I guess the locking saddles might be redundant on the FST system anyway as locking them would seem to take away the issue the FST is designed for.

Regardless, my question is how good a design is the Gotoh 510 6 screw trem in terms of the pivot point etc? Has it been designed to be an improvement over the normal vintage fender trems, like the Callaham design, or even more refined like the Wudtone design?

The Wudtone design seems to get a decent amount of praise from the pivot design improvement point of view, but I really like the push fit trem arm design in the Gotoh. However, there is no point in going for the Gotoh if the fundamental pivot design is still flawed.

I have asked Andy at Wudtone if he could do a trem for me that uses the push fit floyd rose arm instead, which it appears he might be able to do.

I know there are other trems worth considering. Any advice appreciated. 

jaymenon

The Wilkinson locking saddles would be one step further improvement in terms of tuning stability as compared to the Gotoh 510 - so I wouldn’t worry about the FST mechanism (which is redundant as you rightly pointed out).

I don’t like the appearance of the Wilkinsons though. With the FST, I can use conventional saddles...

...and Kevin Hurley makes a killer steel FST block.

If you have perfectly drilled trem screw holes:
The 6-screw trem is every bit as stable as a two screw design.

I have found that I like Fender Bullet strings with Strat tremolos...

Any tremolo (including the Wudtone) in which the string contacts the baseplate, at the top of which it makes a (approx) 45° angle towards the saddle will introduce one further point of friction - even if chamfered / radiussed. Everytime you bend a string it will come back a little bit flat and then when you’re depress the trem arm it’ll come back in tune again. (also on a floating tremolo, when one string comes back flat, the other strings automatically come back a little sharp). This is particularly obvious on the G string...

When I eliminated that one contact point (with the Gotoh FST), my strat finally stayed in tune.

I also disagree with the concept of the ‘Whacker Plate’ since ICBM (wise man) pointed out to me that the baseplate of the tremolo floats above the body and does not contact it.

See pic:
https://i.imgur.com/a45rhd0.jpg

There is a little video here.

[Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/cSOrSNR.mp4)

At the headstock end, locking tuners versus traditional tuners, not a big difference.

i_b_tulloch

Thanks Jay, that makes sense.

As I would be using the Wilkinson locking saddles, my main question would be whether there is any difference between how the Wudtone plate and screw hinge point is designed versus the Wilkinson?

You have mentioned that the whacker plate doesn’t really make a difference, but is there any other design features, e.g. bottom of plate angle, screw hole design, screw design etc, that has been enhanced with the Wudtone?

thanks

jaymenon

I presume you mean the Wudtone versus the Gotoh?

if you’re using the Wilkinson saddles I’m not sure if they are compatible with the Wudtone - so it’s a moot point, you may be committed to using the Gotoh.

From what I can see the little facets on top of the Wudtone baseplate will logically allow better movement of the tremolo. There again I suspect using tremolo screws with countersunk heads would achieve pretty much the same thing...

I hope this helps...

i_b_tulloch

Yes, I meant Gotoh not Wilkinson.

It does seem like the Gotoh would be the best drop in replacement. The 10.5mm Wilkinson locking saddles would fit perfectly into the Gotoh Narrow trem.

I did read that the Gotoh arm wasn’t a true pop in arm, and you still have to screw after you push it in, is this correct? I would
prefer a push in arm, so was thinking about changing the Gotoh arm for a floyd rose push in arm. Apparently they need a 10mm hole, so hopefully compatible with the Gotoh baseplate.

thanks

jaymenon

I did finally get around to making a geeky video with the Gotoh 510 FST tremolo.

I played chords rather than melodies to illustrate the point, since dissonance is of course most evident when playing chords...

On this guitar there are three potential points of friction:
1. Saddle tops
2. Nut slots
3. String tree (E & B strings only)

This guitar has Kluson vintage slotted tuners - not lockers.  Also I didn't have time to lubricate the nut slots with graphite - despite which the tremolo stays in tune.

uksaint7

jaymenon said:

I did finally get around to making a geeky video with the Gotoh 510 FST tremolo.

Very impressive! 

I have a two-post 510 with the FST block going onto a new partscaster build, is in assembly right now. I also have the Floyd Rose non-fine tuner on another guitar and agree it is a fantastic, solid feeling bridge. At least with proper body inserts from an Original for the bridge posts, I didn't use the screws that came with it. I'm looking forward to giving the 510 a try!

Incidentally I bought the bridge from Gear4Music, think it is good value at £80- just had a look and they're still this price. They're a drop-in replacement on a US Std Strat.

jaymenon

A wise person I know just pointed this out to me:

 imagine a point on the string where it bears against the hole in the baseplate.  When the string stretches that point moves fractionally.  

The amount by which it moves is proportional to the distance of the ball from that point.  If the ball is distant, that point will move more when the string stretches.  If the ball is very close, it will move less.  

Logically, if you can engage the string ball on the underside of the baseplate, you have effectively eliminated the potential for friction at that point, without all the complex tooling to the block that Gotoh do.’

so a seriously deep drilled block (with the balls riding high) would keep your tremolo in tune…!