Cheap But Giggable Bass Combo

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

So I bought my first bass a couple of weeks ago, and low and behold have somehow ended up in a band playing bass. New band so no gigs booked as yet, and will probably be couple of months before that happens so got some time to research the bass amp market to get myself something useable.

I have close to zero knowledge of bass amps. I'm looking for something powerful and robust enough to handle small-to-medium sized gigs but that won't cost the earth (ideally with a DI out for going into a PA). Basically what I'm looking for is the bass equivalent of the venerable Peavey Bandit, if such a thing exists?!

Questions:

Wattage - my 80w Blues Cube guitar amp seems plenty loud for guitar purposes, but from what I can see 80w is child's play in the bass world. Realistically, how much wattage would I need to be able to hang with a drummer playing moderately hard rock stuff? 

Speakers - how much of a difference does speaker size make? I see a lot of amps that have 15" speakers, which is v rare in guitar amps. Does a 15" driver generally handle bass frequencies better, all other things being equal?

Brands - A lot of the brands for bass amps are ones I'm unfamiliar with. Ashdowns seem pretty ubiquitous and generally cheap - are they any good or are they cheap for a reason? Others that have caught my attention are the TC Electronic BC250 series and Fender Rumble series. Any good?

Combo vs Head+Cab - maybe I would be better served with one of those dinky little heads, and then I can get a cheap cab that I can then trade up to something bigger and better further down the line if I decide to stick with the whole bass thing long-term?

Any and all advice appreciated! 

Bridgehouse

See my new bass amp thread. An old Trace at around 150w (Trace Watts!) will do the job and cost about £150 or so. Or an Ashdown like the one @legionreturns got. 

They are cheap as chips, loud, and do the job. They make good backup amps as well when you get more spendy.

The only issue is weight - though the Trace I just got is quite manageable. 

Bridgehouse

Oh, and on Ashdown - if it breaks they will repair it foc if you get it to them - regardless of age....

Bridgehouse

Just an aside on speaker size - it’s irrelevant for frequencies (in real terms) as it’s the cone movement that counts. Check out an amp or cabs frequency handling - most are -10db down to about 41hz or so. A low B string is 28ish Hz..... it’s all about the harmonics on bass!

ICBM

The bass equivalent of the Peavey Bandit is either the TKO or the TNT, depending on the age - both of them got bigger, heavier and more powerful with each series - the early TKOs are a bit underpowered, and the later TNTs are massively heavy and awkward to move, not helped by still only having a top handle. Like all Peaveys they're extremely robust, tend to sell for very little, and although not the most refined-sounding amps in the world, they sound reasonable and project well.

150W is plenty with an efficient 15" speaker or a 4x10" cab - I would avoid 4x10" combos if possible due to the weight, they're getting a bit daft.

Bridgehouse

Actually - I think I ought to give you a more comprehensive reply!

Bass amps are quite different to guitar amps. For many, it's about headroom, projection, and frequency handling. In the bass world, clean tone reproduction is king - lots of bass players add their dirt or fuzz or whatever before the amp. A bass amp is a lot "fuller" in it's range compared to a guitar amp, as it has a much broader spectrum to have to cope with (ironically).

For most bass players they are looking for:

- Clean headroom that will cut through
- A good EQ section that lets them set the EQ for a room or for their taste
- DI out for PA support or FOH etc.
- An input gain control that allows them to set a level to avoid clipping (and can compensate for active/passive basses) They often have a -10db pad to allow actives to use the same setting
- an FX loop (but not always)

The head/cab or combo debate is just as strong in Bass circles as guitar - but to some extent more so, as output is often determined by the ohm rating of the speakers anyway - so a 500w combo might only put out 300w into it's inbuilt 8 ohm speaker but put out 500w at 4 ohms when an 8ohm extension cab is connected.

Speaker sizes are much like a flavour choice really. There's a subtle difference between the various combinations such as 1x15, 2x10, 1x12, 2x12, 4x10, 4x12 (rare), 6x10 and 8x10. Many players like a 2x10 with a 1x15 if they are matched - mixing can cause phase issues which cancel some frequencies out.

However, in most cases, players will say a 2x10 or 1x10 will sound "tighter" than a 1x15 which they would describe as "looser". Often this translates to more upper mids when tighter and more lower mids when looser (but not always)

Then we have power amp choices. The traditional amps are valve - like the bassman, amp svt/b15 etc. I have a pf20t amp head - it's 20w but all valve. When pushed, it's as loud as a 250w class D amp. Some 100w tube heads can be as loud as a decent 800w class D head.

The older solid state heads are class A/B - like my trace which is 150w. In all seriousness, it's as loud as a decent 500w class D head, and can give an 800w class D head a run for its money.

Class D heads are the small teeny tiny ones. They range from about 250w up to 1000w+ Some employ bridging and bridge two amps (500w+500w bridged to give 1000w) They are lightweight, small, convenient and dominate the market. Some players say they don't have the "heft" or "trouser flap" of a good old A/B amp. 

Just like a guitar amp tho, it's about taste - trying lots and seeing what you like. Most amps and cabs have their own 'colour' and flavour - and do sound different. Some like the more traditional grindy Ampeg sound, some like the dirty sound of Aguilar, some like the clean sparkle of a very clean Class D head, others like a tube amp sound with warmth.

At the cheaper end of the market, Ashdown are actually very good. TC have had QC problems in the past (more than Ashdown). If buying new, it's worth trying Ashdown. The real killer bargain in the £500ish range is the Fender Rumble 500 v3 - which is exceptional (it's a 2x10 combo which accepts a 2x10 matching extension cab). It's loud, sounds fantastic, is lightweight, and does a really good job for small/medium gigs. It has DI out and plenty of headroom. Fender have brought out a stage 800 which is very similar but has their modelling technology in it - it's a bit louder (not much) but the models onboard are very very good. 

The other option is an old used A/B amp like the Trace Elliot or Ashdown MAG series - great amps, very loud, really solid, but a bit on the heavy side.

Going up the scale - Markbass do some exceptional combos - my pick would be the Alain Caron 121 Lite - it's a bi-amp combo with a 500w amp driving the 12" and a 300w amp driving a proper 3" tweeter (no piezo rubbish here!) 

Then you are on to Mesa and AER etc which are well over £1000 even used and the Mesa's get stupid heavy (like 100lb/50+kg heavy) 

In the separates, well, it's even more complex! 

ICBM

[Pedant alert]

It's 'Class AB', not 'Class A/B'. It's also slightly easier to type .

Bridgehouse

ICBM said:

[Pedant alert]

It's 'Class AB', not 'Class A/B'. It's also slightly easier to type .

For some reason my laptop autocorrects it to A/B!!

Bridgehouse

(Turns out A/B Testing is a defined term in my dictionary as it gets used in a lot of documents I receive... *sigh*)

GSPBASSES

If you fancy a trip to Eastbourne, or anybody come to that. I have a Marshall stack but I'm trying to get rid of, £100 that I will donate to the forum. 

Bridgehouse

GSPBASSES said:

If you fancy a trip to Eastbourne, or anybody come to that. I have a Marshall stack but I'm trying to get rid of, £100 that I will donate to the forum. 

What sort of Marshall stack is it Graham?

Funkfingers

Bridgehouse said:

GSPBASSES said:

I have a Marshall stack ... I'm trying to get rid of

What sort of Marshall stack is it Graham?

If it is a Dynamic Bass System series, I have a redundant 7210 cabinet in need of a good home. (May also require some attention.)

Bridgehouse

Funkfingers said:

Bridgehouse said:

GSPBASSES said:

I have a Marshall stack ... I'm trying to get rid of

What sort of Marshall stack is it Graham?

If it is a Dynamic Bass System series, I have a redundant 7210 cabinet in need of a good home. (May also require some attention.)

When you say "some attention"....?

Mark1960

If your band rehearse using a PA, i would put the bass through that initially, and see how things go before investing in an amp.

Bridgehouse

Mark1960 said:

If your band rehearse using a PA, i would put the bass through that initially, and see how things go before investing in an amp.

If you do, it's worth putting it through a Preamp/DI pedal so you get some control over EQ and potentially have some cab simulation as well - the Behringer BDI21 is only £20 or so and does the job admirably...

GSPBASSES

This is it, sorry not a very good photo.

The P Bass I built for myself while ago, its a kind of copy  of the bass Jet Harris used to play in the Shadows in the late fifties., It has a Seymour Duncan quarter pounder, on board EMG preamp, with cut and boost  bass and treble,  mid cut and boost with sweep control that determines whether mid frequency is cut and boosted from. I gave it away a few years ago to the music department at Chickenshed, it's now used all the time in the house band. 

    

Bridgehouse

GSPBASSES said:

This is it, sorry not a very good photo.

The P Bass I built for myself while ago, its a kind of copy  of the bass Jet Harris used to play in the Shadows in the late fifties., It has a Seymour Duncan quarter pounder, on board EMG preamp, with cut and boost  bass and treble,  mid cut and boost with sweep control that determines whether mid frequency is cut and boosted from. I gave it away a few years ago to the music department at Chickenshed, it's now used all the time in the house band. 

    

Graham - if I can arrange to get down to you I’d take it. 

But are are you sure? They go for more than the £100 you suggested.. I know they aren’t an easy sell given they weigh the same as a small planet, but they are epic in tone and volume from memory! Let me see if I have a day soon where I can make a trip to the south coast. 

Is it a 7200 series or a 7400 series? 

Legionreturns

Bridgehouse said:

Mark1960 said:

If your band rehearse using a PA, i would put the bass through that initially, and see how things go before investing in an amp.

If you do, it's worth putting it through a Preamp/DI pedal so you get some control over EQ and potentially have some cab simulation as well - the Behringer BDI21 is only £20 or so and does the job admirably...

Alternatively, invest in a second hand Zoom B3 / B3n. I have the latter, and use it into PA for my commercial jam sessions. As long as you've got a decent sub on your PA, it'll sound great. Loads of useable presets and tweaking available. 

ICBM

Mark1960 said:

If your band rehearse using a PA, i would put the bass through that initially, and see how things go before investing in an amp.

If it’s a typical rehearsal-room PA with just top cabs, and especially if the speakers are smaller than 15", don't do that - it will sound horrible, make it harder to hear the vocals and depending on the quality of the PA amp and speakers, there's a risk of overloading them. If the PA has subs, then it's fine.

Dontgiveupyourdayjob

Wow, some great knowledge bombs being dropped here! Most of the stuff regarding ohms and speaker efficiency etc is way over my head at this point, but interesting to read anyway!

I probably should have mentioned in the original post that I'm probably not wanting to spend more than £150. I would love to be able to get into the Mark Bass or Ampeg end of the market, but that ain't happening sadly!

Someone near me is selling an old Trace Elliott combo on ebay. So from what you guys have said about relative power outputs, would something like this punch above its weight compared to something like the modern Class D 100-200w combos you see?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173659176836

Bridgehouse

Dontgiveupyourdayjob said:

Wow, some great knowledge bombs being dropped here! Most of the stuff regarding ohms and speaker efficiency etc is way over my head at this point, but interesting to read anyway!

I probably should have mentioned in the original post that I'm probably not wanting to spend more than £150. I would love to be able to get into the Mark Bass or Ampeg end of the market, but that ain't happening sadly!

Someone near me is selling an old Trace Elliott combo on ebay. So from what you guys have said about relative power outputs, would something like this punch above its weight compared to something like the modern Class D 100-200w combos you see?

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/173659176836

That will be very loud and effective. It will weight about 30-35kg and will cope with small medium gigs no problem at all.

Trace amps do have a distinctive sound to them - some don’t like it but most do