help me to start learning to improvise.

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have no doubt put up a similar thread either here or musicradar in the past.

my overriding problem (apart from my guitar playing) is that i just CANNOT understand music theory at all.i know i sound like a complete dunce and you'd be right,but whenever i have tried to read up on anything theory,my mind just switches off.have tried to start learning the stuff but my mind just won't take any of it in (am not embellishing either).the same with scales too.

is there any tips you can give about improvising that isn't just about theory?

  
i like cake :-) here's my youtube channel   https://www.youtube.com/user/racefaceec90 



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Comments

  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4158
    A good place to start is the root third and fifth of the chords in the song , getting them under you fingers and getting used to the octave shapes and stop playing boxes and play a scale along the whole string
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  • vizviz Frets: 10643
    Just get a couple of guitar lessons with someone who knows the stuff and can explain it well.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • RedRabbitRedRabbit Frets: 483
    A teacher will undoubtedly be the best way to get started as they'll be able to structure the lessons around what you want to achieve and how you are progressing.

    That said a lot of guitarists will start out with learning the minor pentatonic scale.  Learn the shapes (or even just the first position to begin with) and play around with them over some backing tracks.  Youtube is your friend here. 

    You might find that you end up just running up and down parts of the scale and that's fine to begin with as you'll be getting used to the shapes and getting your ears used to the sound but sooner or later you'll want to learn some licks.  You can learn licks in isolation or you can learn some solos that you like and steal from them.  Very few people truly improvise but instead we mainly rely on stock licks that they'll use to fit the song and what they want to express.

    A couple of Justin Sandercoe's videos to help get you started if this is the path you want to take.





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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    A BIG BIG plus 1 for Justin's lesson's using the minor pentatonic.

    I'm going to link to a clearly structured series of lessons that will give you immediate practical learning and instant results for improvising.
    It worked for me and I can not recommend it highly enough.

    Start here for the basics & intro
    :
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-011-BluesBasics.php

    Then continue through the BL- series of lessons.
    If you know the pentatonic shapes / patterns, you can skip to the parts that are going to be the most useful re: your question, and those parts are where Justin teaches 5 licks for each position, and, crucially, how to use them to start improvising.
    I will point those out in the series of links below.

    The scales you need:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-012-BluesScales.php

    5 licks to learn (it is mis-named on the site as Bends, it is about licks):
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-013-BluesBends.php

    The art of bending:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-014-BluesBends.php

    How to use licks:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-015-BluesUseLicks.php

    Keep going - the next scale pattern:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-016-MinPentPos2.php

    5 licks for pattern 2:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-017-BluesLicks2.php

    Linking patterns 1 & 2 to improvise:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-018-LinkingPos1Pos2.php

    Introducing the 'blue note':
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-019-BluesScale.php

    How to play over an intro / ending:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-020-IntroEnding.php

    Scale pattern 3:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-021-MinPentBluesPos3.php

    5 licks for pattern 3:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-022-Pos3Licks.php

    Scale pattern 4:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-023-MinPentBluesPos4.php

    5 licks for pattern 4:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-024-Pos4Licks.php

    Scale pattern 5:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-025-MinPentBluesPos5.php

    5 licks for pattern 5:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-026-Pos5Licks.php

    Linking all patterns:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-027-LinkingPositions.php

    Adding some extra notes:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-028-DorianApproch.php

    Some more licks:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-029-DorianLicks.php

    Summary:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-030-PuttingItTogether.php

    Further learning:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-102-ScaleChoicesInBlues.php

    :)
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  • DulcetJonesDulcetJones Frets: 515
    The scale patterns Justin starts with are where I started, all of a sudden, without knowing all the theory hows and whys I could improvise simple riffs that didn't make me cringe.  I would start at the top of the list close2u posted and work your way through gradually, you do still have to memorize these patterns but it's not that hard and a lot of players have gotten a lot of mileage out of them.  It's a worthwhile journey.

    “Theory is something that is written down after the music has been made so we can explain it to others”– Levi Clay


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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    edited April 2014

    my overriding problem (apart from my guitar playing)...
    How frequently do you practice?

    How long do you practice for?


    Have you ever wondered if this "guitar playing" is the main problem? 

    The ability to play has to come first.  Are you able to already play the sort of guitar playing you want to improvise and "be like"?

    The other thing, and it might sound odd, but why do you want to improvise?  Just curious.  Because if your ultimate answer is, "As it happens I don't really want to improvise," then that would go some way to explaining why you've not made progress with it.  For what it's worth I don't improvise much; I can, but it's not something I particularly want to do.  So I focus on my playing.
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  • thanks for the replies :-)

    what i really want to be able to do is make my own stuff up (find my own voice on the guitar).have spent nearly all of my time trying to learn other people's tracks (and they do it a lot better than i do ;-)

    i don't practise either (just mess about on the guitar/no structure to it).tbh my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).

    i have no interest in joining a band e.t.c (as my anxiety puts paid to that/bad guitar ability too). i just feel that i have been banging my head against a brick wall for the past 20 odd years with trying to learn the instrument.

    will definitely look at the links and try to practise them.

     
    i like cake :-) here's my youtube channel   https://www.youtube.com/user/racefaceec90 



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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    edited April 2014
    i don't practise either....
     
    I thought so.  Start by fixing this.  It is essential; it's non-negotiable.

    Practice.  Every day. 

    Everything will improve after that.  Absolutely guaranteed.  You could make more progress in one year like this than in the twenty years of structureless non-practice you've already not-practiced.  You would be astonished at the level of player you could become compared to where you are now.

    And then improvisation will be possible if that's what you choose do do.  Because you won't be able to improvise until you can play.
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  • the next problem i need to work out is to create my own personal practise routine.that's going to be the tricky part to work out as i'm pretty awful at everything tbh.

    i think i may well have to save for a couple of guitar lessons,so a teacher can start me off on the right path as to what to practise.

    will also actually start watching those justin video's (i have known about his lessons/subscribed a few years ago to his channel)but just never bothered to actually watch/practise anything from his channel.

    well i want to finally do something about that. 
    i like cake :-) here's my youtube channel   https://www.youtube.com/user/racefaceec90 



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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4027
    edited April 2014
    the next problem i need to work out is....

    i think i may well have to save for....

    will also actually start watching...
    You are waiting for the perfect moment to start.  You don't need to.  You need 10-30 minutes a day.  Today's a day.  So is tomorrow.  That's how to start.

    All you really need is:

    1)  a tuner (cos an out of tune guitar will always sound awful).

    2)  something like a metronome, and / or a piece of software like Transcibe! -- I.e. something which can help you practice (whatever it is that you are playing) slowly and which you can gradually speed up.  Playing it right is the most important thing.  And to play it right you've first got to be able to play it slowly. 

    Now, fair enough, lessons usually help, (for technical and psychological reasons), and having an idea where you're going helps too.  But that part is not actually that difficult.  I don't know what music you like but if, say, you like "classic rock" then that's what you practice.  Pick simple songs of the sort you like and learn how to play them.  And if it's taking too long then lower the bar:  I.e. don't start with Rush; start with "All Right Now" sort of thing.  Common sense.

    People sometimes go wrong, get distracted, by a feeling of "I've got to learn everything."  No you really don't.  You learn what you want to play.  If you don't like Blues or Funk then you don't need to spend time practising Blues or Funk.  It will still be there for you to learn when you've got good enough at whatever you're mainly into.  Basically, you've got to start somewhere so you may as well practice what you enjoy.  Cos then you'll enjoy it and keep practising. 


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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    Wait, wait, wait !!!
    Don't dive in to those links just yet.
    In light of what you have just said, you need to prepare yourself first.

     my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).
    That was me too .. and then I discovered Justin's lessons.
    I went from zero to hero in no time!! lol
    ;)

    Seriously, given what you say here, you MUST start here and work through, making sure you have all the basics in place.
    http://justinguitar.com/en/BC-000-BeginnersCourse.php
    As you have played a long time, albeit unstructured, you will get through quickly.
    Then, you MUST continue and work through here:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/IM-000-IntermediateMethod.php

    These additional parts will help you :
    Technique work:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/TE-000-Technique.php

    Two suggested practice routines:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-501-BeginnersPractice.php

    http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-502-IntermediatePractice.php

    Both from this sections:
    http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-000-Practice.php



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  • Grunfeld said:
    don't start with Rush


    oops ;-)

    that's mostly what i have learned covers of.

    i do love classic rock and especially love alex lifeson/dave gilmour and steve rothery's playing most of all. would love to be able to do dreamy textural soundtrack type guitar playing.that's one of my big aims with my guitar playing tbh.

    the last guitar tutor i went to a few years ago was a bit of an arrogant sod tbh.when i tried to show him what i was practising (metallica's sanitarium) he said "oh that's easy to play!" i also wasn't offered a coffee when his wife asked if he wanted one (considering the lesson was £25). he also forgot that he had a lesson with me previously (cycled 3 miles to his house/with my guitar).



    anyhoo i may well stick mostly to online lessons as they are free   

     
    i like cake :-) here's my youtube channel   https://www.youtube.com/user/racefaceec90 



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  • SambostarSambostar Frets: 8745
    I would spend less time learning guitar, as thinking tunes and lead lines and patterns or progressions in your head, that way you might not become chained to a few positions or scales for the most part of eternity and be thinking more about the note choice than what is comfortable or feels familiar.  Although I'd learn a few riffs and that too though.
    Backdoor Children Of The Sock
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  • would love to be able to do dreamy textural soundtrack type guitar playing.that's one of my big aims with my guitar playing tbh.

     
    Once you begin to get your head around Sonar (as per your other thread), layering simple lines over each other will be a good place to start.

    And should help with the theory side of things. You'll quickly hear what works and what doesn't for you, theory is just a way of describing that, either to yourself or other people.
    littlegreenman < My tunes here...
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  • SimonCSimonC Frets: 1391
    Investing in a simple looper (TC Ditto for eg) is a good way to start experimenting with this kind of thing "on the fly" as well.
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  • FusionistaFusionista Frets: 184
    edited April 2014

    i don't practise either (just mess about on the guitar/no structure to it).tbh my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).

    i have no interest in joining a band e.t.c (as my anxiety puts paid to that/bad guitar ability too). i just feel that i have been banging my head against a brick wall for the past 20 odd years with trying to learn the instrument.
     
     Some very good advice here.  

    You are in a very good place to start as well.  Frustration = Motivation.  When I was in a similar place, I learned the major scale in all 5 (only) positions starting from C.  Lo and behold you learn all the (6) modal patterns as well, because they are the same, just start on different notes.  So second position starting from C is Dorian - magic!  5th position is minor - how easy is that ? Then I just experimented with which pattern suited over any song, and hey presto, I got the key centre as well.  The first song I remember cracking was Black Magic Woman (Santana: D Dorian) and I was off and away.

    Also try this guitarteacher.com/2010/03/01/modal-jam-tracks-a-dorian-mode/


    "Nobody needs more than 20 strats." Mike Landau
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  • frankusfrankus Frets: 4719
    edited April 2014
    I am deeply enjoying @Grunfeld 's posts - I've reread them at least three times so far because they are so packed with the truth they bear a fair bit of rereading.

    Also: Getting a looper and realising frustration IS NOT an invitation to feel bad, but an invitation to do stuff...

    that stuff is great advice.

    Improvisation is not composition. AND whatever anyone else says Theory has VERY VERY LITTLE impact on Improvisation. I'd argue it has very little to do with real composition either - it's just handing you a list of safe notes... whereas the reality is rhythm dictates where to play the safe notes, for all other occassions there's the "unsafe"/interesting notes.

    If you want to get improvisation identify the parts of other people's music that you love and steal them. Where people bang on endlessly about modes and scales - they needn't - most of what you love about music is the rhythm, here, watch this!



     ... and of what's left most is the timbre of the tiny parts left after that there's technique and after that it's notes (of which there are several octaves on a guitar - two accessible per scale pattern AND ... Miles Davis (one of the most famous improvisors - deservedly, of all time) had a two octave range on his trumpet - so unlocking the entire neck isn't necessary to have all the notes available to Davis... it's a nice to have and a goal for the distance.

    Some books I'd recommend are Victor Wooten's the music lesson (it's about the context of music), Daniel Levitin's This is your brain on music (again about the purpose and context of music) and Philip Toshio Sudo's Zen Guitar (it's about why we're doing it)

    Figure out the why and the how comes naturally. To improvise you've got to make lots of mistakes (as Einstein says: anyone who's never made a mistake has never done anything of worth) so get used to making them AND more importantly learning from them and recoverring from them.

    Justin Sandercoe is a really great guy, his lessons are full of insight and his understanding of the guitar and music - he explains things using modes and scales but is not beholden to them in his own compositions and back in 2005 when I fancied being a shredder and uber-theorist (three cycle of fifths to define modes of major, minor and jazz minor with interstials to show the relationships, anyone?) it was Justin who brought me down to earth - it's rhythm and knowing what notes you think sound good on the strong beats of the bar... that is all there is to it... nothing more.

    (to be fair, it was me who told him to use youtube to viral market the site.. :D)
    A sig-nat-eur? What am I meant to use this for ffs?! Is this thing recording?
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  • underdogunderdog Frets: 8334
    Big thumbs up for the Justin lessons linked on the pentatonic, someone suggested them to me on here a few months back. I've been playing 20 years, know nothing about theory and could just play songs

    After running through that course of lessons I find I can now do some improv over backing tracks but what I found much cooler was when learning songs I knew what scale was being used and could often pickup the rest of the solo without tab because I had a choice of notes to start with.
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  • frankus said:

    Where people bang on endlessly about modes and scales - they needn't - most of what you love about music is the rhythm.
    This is completely the truth.  I think a good way of starting to improvise (after you've followed the advice above) is to play along with the music you love, but at first restrict yourself to two notes - or even only one.  Having so few notes to work with gets you to focus more on the rhythm.  Most of the self-taught intermediate students who start lessons with me play far too many notes with no breaks between them when they are improvising - it's like they think they're going to fall off if they stop.
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  • SNAKEBITESNAKEBITE Frets: 1075

    Wow, someone who is in the same boat as me!

    As a 43 year old who has been toying with the guitar for about 8/10 years I was getting frustrated.

    I finally bit the bullet and started lessons with the intention of taking my grades.

    The first thing I was taught was the Major scale and the modes of this scale. Bear with me on this as I know you say you struggled with scales.

    Now I do not know off by heart all the notes in all the positions but I am working towards it, a good start is to know all the root notes.

    Anyways, I bought myself a Digitech Jam master loop pedal, played a riff with the chords G, C & D and improvised over it. Using the G major scale I was able to make a reasonable noise which boosted my confidence no end. Then I started to venture out into the other modes and it still sounded good.

    As mentioned above start slowly, use rhythm and just enjoy it!

    The more time you spend playing the better you'll get.

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