Advice & suggestions wanted - teaching a teenager who likes old school soul, not classic rock

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close2uclose2u Frets: 997
edited March 2019 in Technique
I'm teaching a youngster who likes old school soul stuff and name checks Nile Rodgers as a guitar player he likes.
He is a complete beginner so I'm going to start with all the usual basics of open chord formation, rhythm etc.
I don't know many soul songs myself.
And I want some good song suggestions to use to teach him along the way please.
I started him off with a first lesson on simple chord formation with A, D, E, chords.
I intend getting him on to some simple 4/ 4 rhythms soon.
Ideally I want to select some dead simple 2 or 3 chord songs using those chords without having to change the original keys on software. Something he can play along to with those three chords and simple down strum patterns at first.
So …
Gimme recommendations for some old school soul / Motown / R&B etc using easy beginner chords A / D / E possibly in a 12 bar style progression but not necessarily.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • martmart Frets: 5205
    edited December 2018
    If he’s a Nile fan, then he needs good right-hand technique to get the rhythm, and good muting on his left. 

    Personally I’d be tempted to ditch the cowboy chords and go straight to some partial chords higher up the neck. The riff for Le Freak, for example, can be approximated in quite a simple two finger way using only the 5th and 7th frets, where the only chords are single finger partial barres - one finger holding down the D, G and B at the 5th, etc.

    That should give him something he can recognise, and get enthused by, to inspire him to work on the muting and the rhythm. Then build on that by showing how the fuller chords are formed, etc etc.

    Theres a whole book devoted to Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards parts, it might be worth hunting down to get more examples:
    https://www.basslinepublishing.com/product/nile-rodgers-bernard-edwards-funk-disco-grooves-for-bass-guitar/

    caveat: I have absolutely zero experience as a guitar teacher!
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  • Listen to a bunch more of classic James Brown, mostly simple chord progressions ( I’m sure some will be 12 bar or altered 12 bars). Not necessarily simple to play ( the timing more than the technique)but he could play along and it’s the roots of that style. 
    Bob Marley songs ( bear with...) are mostly simple chord progressions. Something like Three Little Birds is three chords. Obviously it’s not soul/RnB but that use of space and fretboard bounce all comes from the same source as RnB but it’s generally simpler. 
    This kind of playing doesn’t tend to use a lot of open chords ( in part because they make it harder to get the damping right) but a couple of closed shapes will cover a lot of reggae songs. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • "Knock on Wood" (Eddie Floyd) and  "In the Midnight Hour"(Wilson Pickett) by any of the 1960's artists of the day, both were (and are) covered extensively.   Also, "Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay"(Otis Redding).     One problem for beginners, that may actually inspire them , is that all of these involve barre chords.

    “Theory is something that is written down after the music has been made so we can explain it to others”– Levi Clay


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  • "Knock on Wood" (Eddie Floyd) and  "In the Midnight Hour"(Wilson Pickett) by any of the 1960's artists of the day, both were (and are) covered extensively.   Also, "Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay"(Otis Redding).     One problem for beginners, that may actually inspire them , is that all of these involve barre chords.

    I was thinking of Knock On Wood. Apart from the Break section, it could be played with open chords apart from the pesky B chord in the Intro.

    It's not a competition.
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  • mgawmgaw Frets: 5239
    partial chords will make all the above very accessible, I always think that getting the pupil to see a glimmer of hope is the key:)
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    mart said:
    If he’s a Nile fan, then he needs good right-hand technique to get the rhythm, and good muting on his left. 

    Personally I’d be tempted to ditch the cowboy chords and go straight to some partial chords higher up the neck. 
    Nile = tight-as and complex 16th note strummimg patterns with incredible right * left hand muting technique playing partial fragments of extended chords. I would say way beyond beginner territory.
    I'm using the cowboy chords to start on the basic
    1 2 3 4
    D D D D
    Then 
    1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
    D U D U D U D U

    Listen to a bunch more of classic James Brown, mostly simple chord progressions ( I’m sure some will be 12 bar or altered 12 bars). Not necessarily simple to play ( the timing more than the technique)but he could play along and it’s the roots of that style. 
    Bob Marley songs ( bear with...) are mostly simple chord progressions. Something like Three Little Birds is three chords. 

    I know very few James Brown songs tbh. Like you, I'm sure many must be variants on a 3-chord 12-bar format but I don't know enough to quickly come up with suitable suggestions. And I want the key of A so chords A, D, E can play along - or at least very close to key of A so that software alteration to A doesn't make it sound like vocally-weird distortion but still recognisable.

    Bob Marley - yes - 3-chord songs and I do use Three Little Birds as a beginner song. With open chords to learn 1, 2, 3, 4 and then the 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + with missed strums to get a reggae feel.


    "Knock on Wood" ...  "In the Midnight Hour" …  "Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay" ... One problem for beginners, that may actually inspire them , is that all of these involve barre chords.

    I was thinking of Knock On Wood. Apart from the Break section, it could be played with open chords apart from the pesky B chord in the Intro.


    Barre chords - exactly. And Dock of the Bay has B7. Although Knock On Wood is A, D, E and the intro could maybe be taught as a single note melody thus introducing picking individual notes and tab reading.
    Thanks but too difficult.


    mgaw said:
    partial chords will make all the above very accessible, I always think that getting the pupil to see a glimmer of hope is the key:)

    Possibly with a 2-string mini barre and a 2nd finger on G string to give a major chord triad that can be moved along the neck.
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  • bbill335bbill335 Frets: 1368
    Two words: Steve Cropper
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    Steve Cropper is boss. And the song suggestions are songs I love.

    However, the boy is a total noob, he has never picked up a guitar before I had a first lesson with him. I taught him some simple basics - holding a pick, holding and strumming 3 chords (A, D, E) with one strum per count of four.
    That is the level of song I need - simple one strum per bar using those 3 chords.
    I just wondered if anyone had a ready list of songs they know are 3-chord songs in the key of A.
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  • close2u said:
    mart said:
    If he’s a Nile fan, then he needs good right-hand technique to get the rhythm, and good muting on his left. 

    Personally I’d be tempted to ditch the cowboy chords and go straight to some partial chords higher up the neck. 
    Nile = tight-as and complex 16th note strummimg patterns with incredible right * left hand muting technique playing partial fragments of extended chords. I would say way beyond beginner territory.
    I'm using the cowboy chords to start on the basic
    1 2 3 4
    D D D D
    Then 
    1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
    D U D U D U D U

    Listen to a bunch more of classic James Brown, mostly simple chord progressions ( I’m sure some will be 12 bar or altered 12 bars). Not necessarily simple to play ( the timing more than the technique)but he could play along and it’s the roots of that style. 
    Bob Marley songs ( bear with...) are mostly simple chord progressions. Something like Three Little Birds is three chords. 

    I know very few James Brown songs tbh. Like you, I'm sure many must be variants on a 3-chord 12-bar format but I don't know enough to quickly come up with suitable suggestions. And I want the key of A so chords A, D, E can play along - or at least very close to key of A so that software alteration to A doesn't make it sound like vocally-weird distortion but still recognisable.

    Bob Marley - yes - 3-chord songs and I do use Three Little Birds as a beginner song. With open chords to learn 1, 2, 3, 4 and then the 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + with missed strums to get a reggae feel.


    "Knock on Wood" ...  "In the Midnight Hour" …  "Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay" ... One problem for beginners, that may actually inspire them , is that all of these involve barre chords.

    I was thinking of Knock On Wood. Apart from the Break section, it could be played with open chords apart from the pesky B chord in the Intro.


    Barre chords - exactly. And Dock of the Bay has B7. Although Knock On Wood is A, D, E and the intro could maybe be taught as a single note melody thus introducing picking individual notes and tab reading.
    Thanks but too difficult.


    mgaw said:
    partial chords will make all the above very accessible, I always think that getting the pupil to see a glimmer of hope is the key:)

    Possibly with a 2-string mini barre and a 2nd finger on G string to give a major chord triad thatDE  can be moved along the neck.
    Slightly clearer than I said it (!)- the missed strums in Three Little Birds, Nile Rodgers is essentially a more complex version of that ( plus three years at jazz college...) so it’s a better grounding than more strummy songs.

    These are the ADE songs ( I’m fairly sure I’m right) off the JustinGuitar site:

    https://i.imgur.com/iP2mzTM.jpg

    Quite a few older soul songs that are three chords ( I Feel Good or Papas Got a Brand New Bag by James Brown are based on 12 bars; Mustang Sally) but not necessarily those three chords. 

    bbill335 said:
    Two words: Steve Cropper
    Time is Tight and Green Onions are both 12 bars. Doubling the bass line for Green Onions might be fun. 
    To some extent maybe if he isn’t learning some of these they might be good suggested listening because they have nice clear chord changes. 
    Tipton is a small fishing village in the borough of Sandwell. 
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  • KKJaleKKJale Frets: 982
    Ain't No Sunshine is a nice way to get beginners into minor chords. 
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  • ShrewsShrews Frets: 2959
    edited December 2018
    I started off with 'Stand By Me' - Ben E King

    G - 2 down strums
    G - 2 down strums

    Cadd9 - 2 down strums
    Cadd9 - 2 down strums

    Em7 - 2 down strums

    D - 2 down strums

    G - 2 down strums
    G - 2 down strums

    The guys below do a good job of Spacer, putting their own spin on it. So perhaps  this could be adapted to suit a complete beginner





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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    @EricTheWeary Thanks - I have all of Justin's songbooks.

    I'm looking for soul / R&B / Motown.

    And only with the chords A, D and E.

    Sorry to appear ungrateful for the suggestions that people are making … but chords A, D and E only please.

    Or, as said, I, IV and V chords that are no more than say a tone away from there so that when I use software to detune in to the key of A it still sounds genuine, not silly.


    I have:

    Sweet Soul Music - Arthur Conley … I, IV, V but it is in C and it has a iv minor chord that could be bypassed.

    Merry Christmas Baby - Otis Redding and others

    Knock On Wood - various artists … I and V basically (playing as majors not dominant 7) with the riff turned in to a single note as opposed to chordal riff
    Thanks.
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  • These don't quite fit the genre but can be played entirely with A E and D - "Gloria" (Van Morrison and Them), "Louis Louis"(The Kingsmen), "Hang on Sloopy"(The McCoys) and "Wild Thing"(The Troggs).    

    “Theory is something that is written down after the music has been made so we can explain it to others”– Levi Clay


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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    update …

    He is coming along well … he can play A, D, E major / minor / 7 chords fine.
    I have just introduced C, G and Fmaj7  chords.
    He has good rhythm and aptitude.

    He has been playing along with a few songs - still using A, D and E chords with an occasional A7 or E7 thrown in.
    I'm going to continue getting him to learn and play songs to drill the basic chords, chord changes and strumming at different patterns. I'm focussing on his basic rhythm and right-arm movement too.

    I'm still unsure how to chart the best course for him that will lead from open chords and cowboy versions of songs to muted / percussive R&B / funky rhythm playing.
    He'll need to know CAGED shapes so that he can play 3 / 4 chord stabs.
    He'll need to have muting techniques.
    He'll eventually need o be able to play in 16ths.


    Does anyone have suggestions for a basic overview / structure I can use?
    Should I try to accelerate him past full on barre chords and only use those as a means of giving him the understanding of playing chord fragments / triad shapes / stabs etc?

    Thanks.
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  • EvoEvo Frets: 307
    Gimme Some Lovin - Good muted octave riff plus a few cowboy chords

    Time is Tight - Percussive single note riff 

    Soul Man - Intro to the Nile Rodgers funky triads

    September - Funky picked single note riff

    Upside Down - Funk strumming without too many changes 

    Good Times - Nile Rodgers version of a four chord strumalong

    The best way to teach this kind of thing is to try and get into it yourself. Take an afternoon and really develop your understanding of the genre, the more you pick up, the more relevant you’re able to make the lessons. It’s not usually about teaching different things, just about how you relate it to what the student is into. Pick what you think they need to learn next, then find a funk/soul track to demonstrate it. Don’t fall into the trap of doing it the other way around!
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  • pintspillerpintspiller Frets: 994
    A couple of lessons might be enough to introduce the intro to Soul Man. Blues Brothers do it in a different key to Sam and Dave so you may have a choice.
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    @Evo ;

    @pintspiller ;

    Thanks for the help.


    My difficulty is seeing a clear path and a length of time it will take to go from open chord strumming to the rhythm techniques of soul / r&b / funk groove playing with partial chords, chips, percussive hits etc.

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  • EvoEvo Frets: 307
    Never try to commit to a length of time, that's entirely down to the student. It takes as long as it takes, some pick it up quickly but others take a little longer.

    Definitely try my first suggestion of taking an afternoon and learning the style better yourself. Make notes on the important aspects and techniques that crop up, and most importantly examples of where they happen. Dig out some chic, diana ross, random access memories and tower of power for the funk. The soul, check out the commitments, blues brothers, any steve cropper tracks, aretha, stevie wonder, even some bruno mars stuff from unorthodox jukebox is pretty good.

    If you do a track like gimme some lovin, then it IS open chord strumming in places (or at least it can be).


    When a student comes to me saying they want to learn metallica, I don't sit them down with battery lesson 1. Start with something at their level first, whether that's open string nothing else matters, the unforgiven, motorbreath or dyers eve. Same with funk and soul, you need to find the simple examples to begin with.

    Find your funk and soul equivalent of wonderwall!


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  • newi123newi123 Frets: 850
    I would say work from day one on timing placement with a metronome / drum machine.

    If he's after playing old school funk like nile Rodgers & Steve cropper,  the actual chords are often very straightforward, but the placement of timing is all important.........
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  • mburekengemburekenge Frets: 1054
    newi123 said:
    I would say work from day one on timing placement with a metronome / drum machine.

    If he's after playing old school funk like nile Rodgers & Steve cropper,  the actual chords are often very straightforward, but the placement of timing is all important.........
    Totally agree about the importance of time feel. Vital!

    Nile Rodgers is not old school funk, and he has some of the deepest chord progressions in pop.
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