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What you hear what we hear

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Going to start this from my perspective as the front of house engineer, therefor hearing what the audience hears. I did two events over the weekend the first a club gig with one band, then a multi band event. On the first gig I also supplied backline for a four piece band drums lead guitar acoustic guitar and bass playing covers. For this band I gave the guitarist a Bluguitar amp 1 with an 8”200 watt cab into which he plugged his guitar and pedal board. There was 1500 watts of monitors on a 3k front of house. The result was a near as dammit perfect controllable guitar sound ( to my ears ) where I was capable of lifting the guitar where needed and burying it when it wasn’t. The tone of it again to my ears sounded great. The gig went very well and the audience of about 150 people were very happy as  were the band but at the end of the gig I spoke to the guitarist who said he would have preferred a bigger cabinet for “his sound”. Had I done this then I know, from experience, all we would have heard was guitar!

On the second gig, there were a lot of metal bands with a selection of 4x12’s and heads from all the usual suspects including Kempers and none of them gave me sound which was anything but mid/bass mush. None of them complained about their sound and the audience were happy but I found it very hated to pick out anything distinctive to boost to the audience.

So the point of this is how much attention do you lot pay to your guitar sound relating it to how it sits in a mix as opposed to what you think it should sound. And I suppose how many would take advice from a FOH engineer on what you could do to make it sound better to an audience or do you just insist on “your sound”   
www.maltingsaudio.co.uk
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Comments

  • sweepysweepy Frets: 4159
    My ears compress when it gets too loud so I am never 100% happy with my live sound tbh
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  • mudslide73mudslide73 Frets: 3049
    Ideally both. I'm so insecure I think I'll play terribly if I think my sound is bad or too loud. Ultimately though I'll take the FOH person's word for it. 

    I've done gigs where we've done our own sound and I thought I sounded terrible but recordings have shown the opposite. 
    "A city star won’t shine too far"


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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71963
    Having done both jobs I tend to be as accommodating to the soundman as I can, within reason. It's usually fairly easy to tell when they have an idea of what I want to sound like and when they don't - I don't have any problem with minor corrections, but I'd draw the line at (for example) adjusting my amp to give an all-mids sound when what I want is a scooped one. I don't have any problem being asked to turn down as long as I can still hear my amp.

    But it can sometimes be hard to know if they're right... at the last gig I did (on bass) the soundman commented that he was getting a spike at 2KHz - I like to boost this because it makes the bass more 'present' in the mix, but obviously I'd overdone it slightly, so I pulled the slider down a bit and all was well... directly in front of the stage. According to a couple of people at the back of the room the bass was too quiet, and on stage it felt too muddy.

    But overall, acceptable for a small bar with poor acoustics and a fairly crappy PA. I'm certainly not going to insist on getting 'my sound' on stage if it ruins the overall mix in the room. It's always worth remembering that the EQ knobs on the desk are far more powerful than anything you can do with your amp's sound on stage, so don't try to fight the sound engineer! Co-operation works better :).


    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    I don't really have a sound so I'm not precious about it .... in the last ten years I've gig'ed Tech 21, Marshall, Vox, Blackstar and more recently Fender HRD. What ever the amp I'm using I tend to basically have a generic classic rock type sound and a generic clean compressed tone. I don't need a load of volume as I use IEM's and I am happy enough to turn down if asked to a point .......But

    There are issues with less experienced sound engineers who think they can mic everything up on a small stage, have the backline whisper quiet and control the whole mix of everything through the PA ..... now in their heads and on paper that might seem a good idea but in reality stage mics ..... especially mics like the good o'l 57 pick up the cab in front of them and the drums to the side. On a small stage you need the guitar level going down the mic much higher in amplitude than the level of   drum spill ..... lets say 80% guitar and 20% drum spill is workable but make the guitar player play too quiet and your guitar signal is then more like 60 % guitar and 40% drums . Any attempt to raise the guitar in the PA will just raise the drums as well. Especially cymbal bleed. The effect of this in IEM's is your guitar mic is basically acting as a drum ambient mic, it's a very noticeable and unpleasant effect.   

    Things that annoy me when I'm doing FOH sound are big jumps in volume from channel  \ patch changing .... guitarist not muting the guitar between songs, and having too muddy a sound .... you can reduce top end from the desk but you can't amplify what's not there to begin with 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • Going to start this from my perspective as the front of house engineer, therefor hearing what the audience hears. I did two events over the weekend the first a club gig with one band, then a multi band event. On the first gig I also supplied backline for a four piece band drums lead guitar acoustic guitar and bass playing covers. For this band I gave the guitarist a Bluguitar amp 1 with an 8”200 watt cab into which he plugged his guitar and pedal board. There was 1500 watts of monitors on a 3k front of house. The result was a near as dammit perfect controllable guitar sound ( to my ears ) where I was capable of lifting the guitar where needed and burying it when it wasn’t. The tone of it again to my ears sounded great. The gig went very well and the audience of about 150 people were very happy as  were the band but at the end of the gig I spoke to the guitarist who said he would have preferred a bigger cabinet for “his sound”. Had I done this then I know, from experience, all we would have heard was guitar!

    On the second gig, there were a lot of metal bands with a selection of 4x12’s and heads from all the usual suspects including Kempers and none of them gave me sound which was anything but mid/bass mush. None of them complained about their sound and the audience were happy but I found it very hated to pick out anything distinctive to boost to the audience.

    So the point of this is how much attention do you lot pay to your guitar sound relating it to how it sits in a mix as opposed to what you think it should sound. And I suppose how many would take advice from a FOH engineer on what you could do to make it sound better to an audience or do you just insist on “your sound”   
    I definitely pay attention to my sound but I have also learned to be able to paly my parts without being able to hear myself because monitoring is so variable at gigs. It's weird that no-one was giving you a good tone out of a kemper though...id have thought that should be as close as possible ideal conditions from a mix engineer standpoint.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • MayneheadMaynehead Frets: 1782
    edited January 2019
    Maybe a sludge metal guitar player’s idea of a good tone differs from that of a soundman who grew up listening to classic rock? As long as you’re sorting out the technical issues (balancing the instruments, boosting lead parts, making sure the vocals can be heard etc), I think the issue of tone should be left as the band’s prerogative.

    That being said, I often ask the soundman’s opinion on my tone, since I can’t really tell what it sounds like to the audience. If there’s something noticeably amiss then I do appreciate the feedback 
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  • fastonebazfastonebaz Frets: 4065
    I have a wireless on my guitar and I like to go walkabout during massive solos and very often after I get out in front of the PA I'm really impressed with how rich the sound is compared to on stage.  I'm usually pretty ok to trust the foh engineer.   But I do have a rule nowadays of only playing in single guitar bands,  can't be doing with that volume/ gain battle bollox anymore that's comes with the territory.  So i don't usually have any trouble hearing my amp on stage. 
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  • p90foolp90fool Frets: 31370
    For our smaller gigs I mix from the stage, I own our PA and have a fair bit of studio mixing experience at an amateur/demo level so perhaps I'm not an averagely selfish guitarist, but if I know the audience is getting a great sound then I'm not at all worried about my own, as long as I can hear what notes I'm playing. 
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26754
    I've always been happiest with a small combo behind me at a reasonable volume so as to not murder the front row, micced up and FOH volume controlled by the sound guy.

    Then I like some reinforcement of that amp in a wedge in front of me so I can hear it properly while facing forwards. It also means I can get a bit of feedback from that wedge rather than walking over to the amp (single note compressed sustained type feedback, not full on Pete Townshend). 
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • slackerslacker Frets: 2216
    I didn't buy my Amps not to use them. Having said that my Amps sound great at low volume and so do my over drives. I'll sideways the amp if needed, and I ask the sound person if the levels are ok, clean to dirt etc.

    However not all sound people are competent. Some of the ones that are want an easy life. Some sound people complain of the my sound situation when they want the same thing themselves i.e. their sound.

    So why do we get the best gear and band mates to leave the sound to the cheapest quote or a house person weve never heard before?
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    I go from my head into a 16ohm 1x12 wedge in front of me pointing at my face, and for small gigs I simply mic that to the PA. For larger gigs I also have a 16ohm 4x12 behind me in parallel, facing BACKWARDS, which I mic to the PA.

    I have found this to be the best arrangement for me - I can hear my sound and my volume boosts really well, but because I’m off to the side and the V30 is quite beamy the rest of the band can’t hear too much of me, and in both situations the mic doesn’t pick up too much stage spill. 
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • BarneyBarney Frets: 614
    We mic up and I use a Deeflexx so I don't need much volume on the backline to hear what I'm playing and it gives a true representation of what is coming out of the speaker...before i had this it was awkward to hear what I was playing without having volume fairly loud ...I also found myself altering my sound because I could hear better instead of it passing through the back of my legs 
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  • So the point of this is how much attention do you lot pay to your guitar sound relating it to how it sits in a mix as opposed to what you think it should sound. And I suppose how many would take advice from a FOH engineer on what you could do to make it sound better to an audience or do you just insist on “your sound”   
    In short...lots.

    Slightly longer version...we spend a lot of time making sure that the bass and guitars sit together well to produce our overall sound. As with many, from a personal perspective I have my own "sound", but I always try to talk to the sound guy at soundcheck to make sure I'm giving him what he needs, along with an offer to tweak as necessary.

    On top of that, I always do a set list specifically for the sound engineer, pointing out where the solos are coming from in each song and whether there's a big dynamic range (we go from really quiet and clean to massively heavy and distorted in a few songs, which usually catches them out). Most completely ignore it, but the ones who pay attention say it helped, so...yeah.

    Trouble is, there's a fine line between trying to be helpful and coming across as a diva.
    <space for hire>
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  • stickyfiddlestickyfiddle Frets: 26754

    So the point of this is how much attention do you lot pay to your guitar sound relating it to how it sits in a mix as opposed to what you think it should sound. And I suppose how many would take advice from a FOH engineer on what you could do to make it sound better to an audience or do you just insist on “your sound”   
    In short...lots.

    Slightly longer version...we spend a lot of time making sure that the bass and guitars sit together well to produce our overall sound. As with many, from a personal perspective I have my own "sound", but I always try to talk to the sound guy at soundcheck to make sure I'm giving him what he needs, along with an offer to tweak as necessary.

    On top of that, I always do a set list specifically for the sound engineer, pointing out where the solos are coming from in each song and whether there's a big dynamic range (we go from really quiet and clean to massively heavy and distorted in a few songs, which usually catches them out). Most completely ignore it, but the ones who pay attention say it helped, so...yeah.

    Trouble is, there's a fine line between trying to be helpful and coming across as a diva.
    Wiz

    I've often been told my "tone" is really stupidly trebly when people hear it in isolation. But in a band mix with bass and another guitar or keys it works much better than a really fat bassy thing that a lot of internet critics would call "good tone"
    The Assumptions - UAE party band for all your rock & soul desires
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26465
    edited January 2019

    I've often been told my "tone" is really stupidly trebly when people hear it in isolation. But in a band mix with bass and another guitar or keys it works much better than a really fat bassy thing that a lot of internet critics would call "good tone"
    Indeed - the problem is that there are four distinct base tones for any musical context:

    - Sounds great noodling at home
    - Sounds great on a YouTube demo
    - Sounds great in a recorded mix
    - Sounds great in a live mix

    In my opinion, particularly for distorted stuff, none of them use the same settings.
    <space for hire>
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  • I think an engineers job is to aid the vision of the band. Not to impose their own. Obviously there are shades of grey to this, it's not quite as cut and dry as that. But my opinion is that the artist and audience connection is more important than technican+artist connection.

    Bye!

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  • My whole reason for going down the Helix route was I want to hear exactly what the audience are hearing. I've dialled in my presets at loud volume through my bands PA, so I know they sit nicely in the mix. I have a switch setup for a 3db boost for lead lines and solo's which allows them to poke out just enough above the mix to be heard clearly.

    I monitor via IEM's and set my IEM mix post fader, the mixer is a Behringer XR18 so I can mix from an Android tablet which is attached via a clamp on my Mic stand. With my IEM's being post fader I can hear the exact FOH mix and I can also hear if anything needs adjusting level wise.
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  • BlueingreenBlueingreen Frets: 2584
    edited January 2019
    I go into these things trusting the sound man to make sure things sound right to the audience.  If the on-stage guitar sound is good that's a bonus. Otherwise as long as I can hear myself well enough to play I'm relying on him.

    I wish this approach worked, but frequently it doesn't. All too often the feedback I get from people in the audience, borne out by phone recordings etc, is that the out front balance is not good, the guitar is inaudible etc etc.

    Unfortunately I think the explanation is simple, that I'm playing at a level where some sound engineers are just not very good, whether they are provided by the venue or hired by the band. You get what you pay for, and what you pay is dictated to some extent by what venues will pay.  For a high percentage of gigs I've played where the band is providing the PA, the hire is costing more than 50% of the band's fee, and that still isn't enough to guarantee competence never mind excellence.

    On the several occasions I've been in a band supporting a big name act the sound both off and on stage has invariably been excellent, even in difficult circumstances (outdoors, big boomy halls etc).  That despite the fact that the support band usually gets a pretty cursory sound check because you are, very naturally, not at the top of the PA company's list of priorities.  Obviously even big names sometimes get bad sound and I've probably been lucky.   But I mainly put it down to working with professionals who really know their job and their gear. 

    I don't easily see what can be done about it tbh.  Most sound guys at the bottom of the food chain are nice guys, enthusiasts doing it for not much money.  You do get some lazy ones (usually in my experience ones provided by the venue) but most work hard and do their best.  If they jacked it in there wouldn't be golden-eared replacements queuing up.  I can't see much upside in criticising them or picking a fight, you just end up with a bad atmosphere as well as a poor sound.

    It's not an ideal situation but it's reality and I'm basically just philosophical/fatalist about it. From looking around most guys at the local band/semi-pro level are the same.
    “To a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail.”
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  • smigeonsmigeon Frets: 282
    edited January 2019
    My current set up, as a guitarist/singer, is as follows:

    - I use a Palmer PDI-09 Di box instead of a guitar amp mic. This plugs into the extension speaker socket of my combo amp (it only takes a tiny current so doesn't affect the amp's speaker). It's permanently velcro'd into the back of my amp so for set-up all I need to do is plug in an XLR cable and I'm sorted. 

    This fixes the issue of drums bleeding into the guitar "channel". 

    - For monitoring I use a Behringer B205D "Ultra-Compact 150-Watt PA/Monitor Speaker". This is a tiny yet powerful 2-Channel 8" powered speaker (150W) that perches on a mic stand just to my left. I use it to monitor both my vocal and my guitar.

    Crucially, I don't take my monitor feed from the desk. Instead I take my feeds locally, using a passive XLR splitter box (IMG Stage Line 25.1680 2-Channel 3-Way Line Splitter) that sits on the floor at my feet. My vocal mic plugs straight into one channel of this little box, with the "transformer isolated" output of that channel going to one of the Behringer's channels, and the "direct" output going off to the desk. The output from the Palmer similarly feeds into the second channel of the IMG splitter box so my guitar sound gets to the Behringer's second channel and also direct to the desk. I don't bother putting a general FoH monitor mix into the Behringer as I can hear the others in the band well enough from the stage.

    This is working well for me at the moment. It's very simple to tweak the Behringer to turn my monitored vocal up or down. I can hear it very clearly even when the band is loud. For guitar, wherever possible I just listen to my amp on stage and turn the guitar channel on the Behringer right down - it only gets turned up when the sound man needs me to turn my guitar amp down, or reEQ it, to the extent that I can't hear myself. But when I do need guitar through the Behringer, it sounds surprisingly good. And the Palmer DI box gives a very nice FoH sound as well in my experience.

    I guess this all might sound a bit complicated, but it's quite simple really. I use twin cables to simplify set up: 1 x twin XLR (shortish) from IMG box to Behringer; 1 x twin XLR (longish) from IMG box to desk; 1 x short XLR lead from vocal mic to IMG box; 1 x combo XLR/ guitar lead (longish) between my amp (amp input and Palmer output at one end; my pedalboard output and IMG box input at the other).

    Bottom line is that I don't need to fight with the sound man. I set my amp amp to whatever level he wants, and I still have complete control over what I hear on the stage (both guitar and vocal). And the other band members can still have some of my guitar in their own desk-fed monitors if they want (they usually don’t need it).
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  • ESBlondeESBlonde Frets: 3576
    I've worked both ends of the mic cable. In practice the band that blend well on stage and already have a coesive sound are likely to sound good through the PA. Few knob head novice geeky sound engineers will f#ck that up (but there are exceptions where they try to apply thier artistic interpretation).
    I have come across many guitarists, bassists and drummers who insist on 'thier sound' and really should be taken outside and hosed down. The resulting mix is awful, from one drummer who insisted on a piccalo snare and had his own ear defenders, his kit was just so unbalanced it would have taken a field size festival PA to get a balance. Bass players with heavy fuzz all the time and then they want more bass maaan! Give the engineer something to work with. By all means play 'your sound' but be prepared to listen to the jadded old bugger when they suggest you leave the bottom end to the bass player and leave some room for the singer and second guitarist or keyboard player.
    But these days I only do the stage performance end and come across a few 'engineers' that have a preconcieved idea of what my band should sound like, and because we are not 'rock' they struggle through lack of experience.

    It's best when we all work together and help each other, it's in everyones interest and if the sound dude learns something useful thats great too.


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