Leads- xlr or Jack?

rsvmark

Morning all. I am posting as I need a bit of lead advice.

we gig normally sticking brass and 3x vocals through a small pa and then backline and drums are not mic'd up. But we have a gig coming up in a larger venue and I am nervous we could get lost in it. So as we have plenty of spare channels on the mixer I am thinking we would add a few mics on the drum kit and add bass, keys and guitar onto the pa.

i don't envisage a fully pro mic'd up set up, just adding these into the mix a touch to spread the sound. We would still rely predominantly on the back line and acoustic kit. We have some serious speakers so I don't think that will be an issue.

The question I have is this. Both the bass amp and the keys amp have a 1/4" line out Jack. The question is should I go for a balanced xlr connector on the other end or stick with to jack to jack? We have enough channels on the mixer to go for both.

the other question is what to go for. Having had a quick browse last night, the price seems to vary massively and as these cables are supplementary, I might go for the cheaper end of the spectrum. Stagg seem good value for money- and as I am going to have a buy a few cheap and cheerful mics too, the bill could be horrific! Recommendations very welcome

thanks all

Legionreturns

I've used both, and with tweaking the difference is negligible.

Emp_Fab

You need to consider what use the new kit will be after this one gig.  Cheapo mics might serve as emergency backups but how often do mics fail?  Personally, I’d go with T-Bone mics and XLR cables from Thomann.  At least these will be good enough for future use in other gigs as instrument / vocal mics.

If the amps have XLR outs on them, use those.  The price differential between XLR and Jack is nothing.

octatonic

The arguments against balanced jack are that they don't lock in place and the potential for shorting if using phantom power.

I tend to prefer XLR as they are easy to extend.
What I generally have is a lot of XLR cables and a few short (30-60cm) XLRF to balanced jack and XLRM to balanced jack.

I keep my XLR cables on hose reels organised by length- ie one reel with 10x 12ft XLR, another real with 10x 30ft XLR etc.
Another trick I've learned is to use different colours for cables based on use.

Black for Microphones
Green for AES/EBU
Red for Headphones/extenders
Blue for speaker cable

etc

It greatly simplifies troubleshooting.

Legionreturns

Mic on a bass cab rarely produces a sound that matches up to the line out, and the keyboard amp will be a pretty flat signal. 

Unless the line out on the guitar amps is really good, I'd stick with a mic on them. 

I don't know how far away from me you are, but if it's just for one gig I'd be more than happy to lend you some kit. I've got tons!

ICBM

I would use DI boxes and XLRs to the desk - that gives you a solution to any potential ground loop issues, as well as sometimes level adjustment.

Oddly enough, a cheap passive transformer-based DI will often sound better for DI’ing an amp, rather than a technically better active one.

rsvmark

Thanks all.

bass and keys amp both have 1/4" Jack line out so these can do straight into the desk. @icbm - I am showing my ignorance here but what is a di box and do I need one? should I go for xlr type or Jack into the desk? The manual suggests mic into xlr and line signals in via Jack. 

My marshall has a xlr output so am going to try that over the week end

noted comments on mics which also applies to stands too- cheapest shite will fall apart quick.

finally what about leads themselves? Is Amazon my friend here?

octatonic

A DI box takes an unbalanced, high-impedance signal and converts it to a balanced, low-impedance signal so you can input to the front of a mixing console.
DI means 'direct injection'.

ICBM

rsvmark said:

bass and keys amp both have 1/4" Jack line out so these can do straight into the desk.

They *can*, but this will often cause a ground loop and hum.

rsvmark said:
@icbm - I am showing my ignorance here but what is a di box and do I need one?

octatonic said:

A DI box takes an unbalanced, high-impedance signal and converts it to a balanced, low-impedance signal so you can input to the front of a mixing console.
DI means 'direct injection'.

It also lifts the ground connection - balanced cables keep it separate from the signal ground - which prevents the ground loop.

Any gigging band should have at least a couple really, they are very useful problem-solvers - they don't have to be expensive, in fact you can get a perfectly usable one for under £20.

https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Behringer-DI400P-High-Performance-Passive-DI-Box/KXO?origin=product-ads&utm_campaign=PLA+Shop+-+Behringer&utm_medium=vertical_search&network=google&adgroup=1+-+Product+Level+-+Behringer&merchant_id=1279443&product_id=27132d1&product_country=GB&product_partition_id=111956781679&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6bSEza7j4AIVirXtCh1XEA6JEAQYBCABEgJpfvD_BwE

These will be adequate for DI'ing amps, or instruments with built-in preamps. For DI'ing passive instruments - eg an acoustic guitar with a plain pickup and no on-board preamp - you need the slightly more expensive and flexible active type.

rsvmark said:

My marshall has a xlr output so am going to try that over the week end

If that's something like a TSL or JVM, remember that you *must* still have the speaker cabinet connected - the output transformer needs a load on it. No idea if that applies to the way you're intending to use it or not, but I've seen a couple of amps badly damaged by people not realising that...

mike257

If you are buying DI boxes on a budget, don't waste your money on cheap and cheerful efforts from Behringer and the like. Orchid Electronics in Exeter are a small, one man operation, making VERY good kit for very low prices. All my touring DI box stock is Orchid, and I've seen it in playback rigs on pretty high end tours.

The tiny little Micro DI (no switches, no through, permanent ground lift) is only about £27 and the Classic DI, which is the more fully featured one, is about £35. No reason to ever buy a £30 Behringer shoddy one.

Musicwolf

+1 for Orchid.  Quality kit at very low prices.  I would avoid Behringer DI, especially the DI20, at all costs - they are incredibly noisy.

The nature of your questions tells me that you are inexperienced when it comes to live sound, at least for larger PAs.  I would suggest that you may be better off to rent a PA / Engineer for this gig and see just what is involved.  The kit is only half of the equation.

robinbowes

rsvmark said:

finally what about leads themselves? Is Amazon my friend here?

I make good-quality leads using Van Damme cable and Neutrik connectors.

A 5m XLR-XLR mic lead would be around £17.

PM me for specific requirements.

R.

robinbowes

Musicwolf said:

The nature of your questions tells me that you are inexperienced when it comes to live sound, at least for larger PAs.  I would suggest that you may be better off to rent a PA / Engineer for this gig and see just what is involved.  The kit is only half of the equation.

This is good advice. Running a PA is not easy if you don't know what you're doing.

I'd offer my services (I have a PA which I hire out), but I suspect you may be a little too far from me. I'm in York - where's the gig?

R.

rsvmark

Thank you one and all. Leads ordered and we are having a full dry run this week to test everything. 

It's a bit of a funny gig in that for normal gigs, I am quite happy using our rig for vocals and brass only and getting a decent enough sound. All I am looking to do is supplement and spread the sound as opposed to relying on the pa for the whole thing. If it was a bigger venue, I would certainly hire in, but it was a marginal call. 

maltingsaudio

Good advice through out this, only thing I would add is listen to the results of putting more into your PA. Without knowing how big it is,it is possible more inputs will physically over power the PA taking drivers and amps with it. 

ICBM

maltingsaudio said:

Good advice through out this, only thing I would add is listen to the results of putting more into your PA. Without knowing how big it is,it is possible more inputs will physically over power the PA taking drivers and amps with it. 

That's a good point - especially with bass, but also with keys to an extent. Probably not quite such a problem if you're using the PA more for 'dispersion' and the backline to still provide the bulk of the power, but normally you shouldn't put bass through the PA without subs.

rsvmark

Morning all. Pleased to report my plan worked. We had a rehearsal last night and chucked everything through the pa. Again, the plan was to aid and supplement the instruments, not to be be the primary source. And it worked really well. There was definately a better clarity of all instruments and not a ground loop issue in sight. While there is a lot more faffing than normal, all the band commented on the quality of the sound. The main speakers are 1000w peaveys and the pa amp is 300w so we aren't going to push them too much. 

To to add to the fun, we now have 4 speakers we can use with a separate power amp for foldback and I now need a bloody van to transport it all!