Advice for acoustic gigs

grappagreen

All,

A project has arisen that I'm running with which is little left field for me but of interest given my desire to a) play in front of a few people on a regular basis b) do something that people actually want to listen to and c) not have to deal with organising 4/5 people in a band and all that 'cat herding' nonsense!

Anyway it's basically just me on electrified acoustic gtr and a vocalist. It'll be mostly strummy stuff with a bit of fingerstyle action.. -not sure I'm liking where the responses may go on this one  

I was originally intending to throw a relative fortune on a really nice new acoustic but decided to hold fire and think rationally for a change. 

My intention now is to buy a well used but loved Taylor - I won't be worried about it getting it out at a gig and put the rest towards an LR Baggs Anthem and AER Compact 60. Other than the Anthem (and fitting) I'll therefore not be in too much of a hole financially and hopefully the amplified sound should be better than the horrific sounds I've heard at a few recent gigs/open mic shindigs.

I suppose my key question is do we think it's the right approach? I can't imagine that I'd need to change the AER any time soon, the Baggs can be retrofitted to something else in future should the need arise and the Taylor is a Taylor..

Any insights appreciated from those in the know.

Si

jackorion

AER Compact 60 sounds great and will probably never a) break or b) need to be upgraded...

LR Baggs Anthem sounds great, works well with AER (used this combo myself for many years)

Taylors - not my cup of tea tonally but very well made, playable, good (if modern) tone - the 1 and 2 series are good workhorses but if you can find a 300 series might be worth forking out a little extra as they are better

Seems a good plan to me...

grappagreen

Thanks @jackorion ;

The Taylor will be a 414 so should be OK. I toyed with getting a 414ce but they're quite a bit more expensive on the used market and with an Anthem installed I imagine the standard 414 will sound as good if not better when amp'd up.

Si

Lewy

All sounds eminently sensible and the only variations would be a matter of taste. I like my Compact 60 a lot, I don't care for the Anthem and prefer K&K Pure Mini with an external preamp but that's me. 

jackorion

grappagreen said:

Thanks @jackorion ;

The Taylor will be a 414 so should be OK. I toyed with getting a 414ce but they're quite a bit more expensive on the used market and with an Anthem installed I imagine the standard 414 will sound as good if not better when amp'd up.

Si

414 should be perfect

Lewy said:

All sounds eminently sensible and the only variations would be a matter of taste. I like my Compact 60 a lot, I don't care for the Anthem and prefer K&K Pure Mini with an external preamp but that's me. 

Yes I've moved to K&K now - mainly because the anthem wouldn't fit in my Collings and then I wanted to have the same pickup in my other guitars for ease fo use live, but I think it has a slightly more 'woody' and direct sound - the Anthem is very good and I was happy with it, but I've got used to the K&K now and find the Anthem a bit too 'airy' in comparison...

currently using a Felix as a preamp for my K&K guitars and then into the AER and I'm happy with the sound - might look at something like the tonedexter or maybe adding an internal mic at some point, but all good for the time being...

grappagreen

Thanks @Lewy @jackorion ;

Here's where I come a little unstuck having had no experience with acoustics. You both mention pre-amps. 

What are they giving you that for example the amp/pickup combo can't? Better EQ control? Tonal colouration? 

Just trying to understand more..

Si

jackorion

grappagreen said:

Thanks @Lewy @jackorion ;

Here's where I come a little unstuck having had no experience with acoustics. You both mention pre-amps. 

What are they giving you that for example the amp/pickup combo can't? Better EQ control? Tonal colouration? 

Just trying to understand more..

Si

Well the AER has a preamp - the gain and eq section of the individual channels are preamps that allow you to adjust the input level and EQ the signal before it goes to the power amp (ie the master volume).

The anthem doesn't really need a preamp as it's active and it's EQ is pretty balanced already so the instrument channel of the AER will be fine - the K&K on the other hand is passive so it may need a volume boost, and, in my experience, it needs some more drastic EQ than the AER offers.

The other 'issue' with the K&K is that, in theory, it prefers a 1M input impedance and not everything has that, so pairing it with a suitable preamp solves that issue.

The main reason I have a preamp is for those gigs where I don't take my AER and I'm using the venue's PA - my preamp allows me to EQ both my guitars on their own channel and send two separate signals to the desk - it allows me to mute when I'm tuning, it also allows me to notch out feedback, and feed an amp onstage if I want.

Something you may find if you start going down the acoustic gig rabbit hole is that the tone you experience onstage is entirely dependent on who is running the sound - it's very rare to be able to hear yourself acoustically so your entire experience of the gig comes from the quality of the monitor mix, and these can vary greatly... So, by having my own preamp with me, which I have spent time dialling in with my guitars, my pickups and my playing style means that I'm already one step ahead when it comes to getting a good tone because I'm already giving the soundperson something that needs less work...

But if you're going to use the AER then you'll be good - I'm at the point where I think I'll start taking my AER as my monitor onstage for bigger gigs for both guitar and vocals so I don't have to struggle with monitor mixes...

Lewy

grappagreen said:

Thanks @Lewy @jackorion ;

Here's where I come a little unstuck having had no experience with acoustics. You both mention pre-amps. 

What are they giving you that for example the amp/pickup combo can't? Better EQ control? Tonal colouration? 

Just trying to understand more..

Si

My preferred pickup has very little inside the guitar - no preamp, no battery nothing. Just three little transducers connected to an endpin jack. That's a big part of the appeal for me, aside for the sound...why have a nice lightly built acoustic and then have a load of gubbins inside it. 

But it does need a bit of tone shaping help and that's where the preamp comes in. To get the sound I like I have to make some fairly dramatic cuts to the mid, and I find the K&K preamp that I use gets to exactly the frequencies that need attention and it also takes care of the impedance issue mentioned already.

The reason I prefer the K&K over the Anthem is that I can still hear that shit-awful piezo buzzy quack in the sounds that people seem to practically achieve using that system, and I'm hypersensitive to it and even the slightest hint makes me want to self harm. The K&K isn't necessarily a "truer" representation of the acoustic sound of the guitar, but I find it's artificiality (is that a word) perfectly tolerable and as I'm using it I still feel like I'm getting a similar response that my guitar would be giving acoustically even if it sounds different.

grappagreen

@Lewy @jackorion ;

Thanks again for your time. 

My only real concern is that the horrific sound I referred to earlier is the piezo thing you're referring to

Might have to rethink the Baggs choice..

Appreciate it.

Si

Snags

FWIW in my limited experience, working with amateur PA people, the quality of the guitar sound can often have very little to do with the quality of the guitar and pickup system.

I've got a Takamine EG332C (cheap as chips laminate) and a Furch G23CRC with a Fishman Blend system. On occasion I've wondered why I bothered using the Furch in one particular context, because all of the richness of it brings to the table was totally obscured by the way the PA guy did his end …

Which is mostly to say, don't get too hung up on getting a super guitar unless you're looking for an excuse. A half-decent workhorse and a bit of input into the sound-shaping could well be more than adequate.

Jimbro66

@grappagreen just out of interest what sort of venues do you hope to be playing? Will it be seated venues where customers are there to listen or will it be venues where there is background babble? Do you have your own PA or will there be house PA supplied?

Lewy

grappagreen said:

@Lewy @jackorion ;

Thanks again for your time. 

My only real concern is that the horrific sound I referred to earlier is the piezo thing you're referring to

Might have to rethink the Baggs choice..

Appreciate it.

Si

Well, I am hyper sensitive to it, like I say

I’ve seen demos of the Anthem where it sounds fine, which is why I emphasise it’s the sounds that people seem to get “in practice” that I dislike. With a sound check and somebody competent on the desk it can shine but in sub optimal environments people seem to need to dial in more of the piezo than I would want.

grappagreen

Thanks again for the input all

@Snags - I was rather hoping that the AER would cover my amplification needs and could avoid 'sound guy' interactions for the most part
@Jimbro66 - venues will be small pubs/bars/cafe type places. Will be some background babble (I hope). We're looking to grab a small PA for the vocals and, as per above, I hadn't planned to run the acoustic through it but it's obviously an option. I haven't tried the AER yet so have no idea at this point of it's capabilities from a real-world power perspective.

My simplistic view was that we become autonomous for most of the gigs and if we do end up anywhere where we have to use in-house PA I'd still use the AER and use the line out into the PA.

Si

p90fool

For those sorts of gigs I wouldn't buy an acoustic amp at all. 

It do acoustic duo gigs with a JBL Eon One, or a pair of them for slightly bigger venues.

Beautiful sound, built in mixer, zero feedback issues and incredible portability. I wish this technology had been available years ago at this price. 

You'll need a cheap DI box for your guitar, but you can almost do the entire load in in one trip.

grappagreen

@p90fool ;

The Eon 1 looks sweet..

Thanks for the heads up.

Si

Lewy

p90fool said:

For those sorts of gigs I wouldn't buy an acoustic amp at all. 

It do acoustic duo gigs with a JBL Eon One, or a pair of them for slightly bigger venues.

Beautiful sound, built in mixer, zero feedback issues and incredible portability. I wish this technology had been available years ago at this price. 

You'll need a cheap DI box for your guitar, but you can almost do the entire load in in one trip.

What's the biggest/noisiest type of gig where you're happily just take one Eon One out if interest? My aging Yamaha Stagepas p.a. is due to be replaced soon and I'm keen on a line array type. Was looking at the Bose L1 compact but I'm worried it might be a bit underpowered.....

p90fool

Lewy said:

p90fool said:

For those sorts of gigs I wouldn't buy an acoustic amp at all. 

It do acoustic duo gigs with a JBL Eon One, or a pair of them for slightly bigger venues.

Beautiful sound, built in mixer, zero feedback issues and incredible portability. I wish this technology had been available years ago at this price. 

You'll need a cheap DI box for your guitar, but you can almost do the entire load in in one trip.

What's the biggest/noisiest type of gig where you're happily just take one Eon One out if interest? My aging Yamaha Stagepas p.a. is due to be replaced soon and I'm keen on a line array type. Was looking at the Bose L1 compact but I'm worried it might be a bit underpowered.....

Realistically, with guitar and voice a single Eon One will do a restaurant type gig, or one of those polite cafe gigs where hippies nod their heads in time. 

With a pair of them we've done some pretty rowdy gigs with a hundred or so noisy punters and 20 or 30 dancers. 

The great thing is though that because they're so feedback resistant you can put them behind you, so you can hear exactly what the audience hear. Also, the sub and top arrangement mean you get those fantastic deep, clean acoustic low notes reproduced better than any acoustic guitar amp I've ever heard. 

Lewy

p90fool said:

Lewy said:

p90fool said:

For those sorts of gigs I wouldn't buy an acoustic amp at all. 

It do acoustic duo gigs with a JBL Eon One, or a pair of them for slightly bigger venues.

Beautiful sound, built in mixer, zero feedback issues and incredible portability. I wish this technology had been available years ago at this price. 

You'll need a cheap DI box for your guitar, but you can almost do the entire load in in one trip.

What's the biggest/noisiest type of gig where you're happily just take one Eon One out if interest? My aging Yamaha Stagepas p.a. is due to be replaced soon and I'm keen on a line array type. Was looking at the Bose L1 compact but I'm worried it might be a bit underpowered.....

Realistically, with guitar and voice a single Eon One will do a restaurant type gig, or one of those polite cafe gigs where hippies nod their heads in time. 

With a pair of them we've done some pretty rowdy gigs with a hundred or so noisy punters and 20 or 30 dancers. 

The great thing is though that because they're so feedback resistant you can put them behind you, so you can hear exactly what the audience hear. Also, the sub and top arrangement mean you get those fantastic deep, clean acoustic low notes reproduced better than any acoustic guitar amp I've ever heard. 

Good to know. Thanks!

ESBlonde

Left Field view.

I have gone a different route and kept my cheap epiphone acoustic with its crude under bridge saddle which I paired with the new Mesa Rosetta preamp pedal. (Just for the record I'm still looking for that lifetime acoustic, but this has blunted the need for now).

The rosetta was designed by thier new engineer whose experience is in big mixing desks, and it shows. The ability to take out all the wrong tones and enhance all the right ones makes this a fantastic tool for the acoustic guitarist.

In a live setting (short of a full on concert), I'd say I have an impressive acoustic guitar sound from a cheap guitar (indeed any guitar). I can enhance it to overcome the deficiencies in pretty much whatever PA I'm plugged into and control any feedback. You need no alterations to your favourite electro acoustic, it's not got the digital and processed sound of other comparable stand alone units and it's very well put together.

Having spent a few years running big PAs from the desk, I really appreciate what this box does for both 'troublesome' and quality guitars.

Milk

you wouls probably best llokingaround for a used guitar with a microphone build in as well as the undersaddle piezo as i find the undersaddle a little quacky and thin sounding on its own and you cant go wrong with aer amps. they are indestructable

Modellista

Consider the Yamaha SRT modelling tech built into some of their guitars.

I cannot stand bare piezos, they're an insult to the ears and the guitars they're built into.  Ideally, some sort of modelling has to happen to a piezo to get it sounding good.  You can get pedals to do this, or find a guitar with the SRT 63 built in, like their A-series.

Ironically a lot of the online demos sound a bit quacky and toppy.  I run my A3R through a multiband EQ, compressor and reverb and it sounds awesome.  Totally better than anything with a pure piezo.  I do a fair few open mic nights, and there's always a "wow!" reaction when I plug in the Yamaha compared to basically anything else that's been through the PA that night, even quite expensive guitars with basic piezos and no additional processing.

On the other hand, some piezo-only guitars sound better than others.  I heard one of those fancy retro Epiphones the other night which was pretty mellow-sounding.  But generally, plugged-in acoustic takes a fair bit of fettling to sound anywhere near good.