Anyone actually managed to try or buy one of the new marshall studio amps??

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  • clarkefanclarkefan Frets: 808
    I have to ask, when you had it at full tilt were you getting Van Halen levels of gain, per the legend?  Is that amount of gain in there?
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    clarkefan said:
    I have to ask, when you had it at full tilt were you getting Van Halen levels of gain, per the legend?  Is that amount of gain in there?
    Depends whether you believe the legend...

    ;)



    No.

    If it was, anyone could get that much gain with a Plexi.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • clarkefanclarkefan Frets: 808
    Thanks, didn't think so, but had to ask :)
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  • TTBZTTBZ Frets: 2873
    edited April 2019
    clarkefan said:
    I have to ask, when you had it at full tilt were you getting Van Halen levels of gain, per the legend?  Is that amount of gain in there?
    Maybe not quite the same amount as VH but I thought the Studio Vintage seemed to have more gain than a 1959HW. Maybe it's just due to the less headroom/getting the power amp working more on the 20W version.

    Have a look at the Dan Hawkins video from NAMM on the Marshall YouTube - gives a pretty good idea of how much gain there is and the general tone.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    TTBZ said:

    Maybe not quite the same amount as VH but I thought the Studio Vintage seemed to have more gain than a 1959HW. Maybe it's just due to the less headroom/getting the power amp working more on the 20W version.
    It's definitely much more compressed when it's turned up, which does sound like more gain, but I'm not convinced it has actually got more.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    edited April 2019
    Did you happen to measure any voltages in there?  Just curious as to how they're running those EL34's - 20W for a cathode biased pair is fairly light duty.  And in which case are the pre-amp stages running at less than would be the case in a real Superlead?  
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    Did you happen to measure any voltages in there?  Just curious as to how they're running those EL34's - 20W for a cathode biased pair is fairly light duty.  And in which case are the pre-amp stages running at less than would be the case in a real Superlead?  
    No, I didn’t. I could if you like :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    You know you want to! If you get the chance I think it could be quite interesting.  
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    I could force myself not to do any proper work for half an hour... it’s a tough decision :D.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • FenderishFenderish Frets: 47
    I think you'll find that the preamp works at usual plate voltages whereas power tubes work at lower plate voltages than usual on 20W mode et even lower on 5W mode...
    Well that's how santiago explained it at least...
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  • riffpowersriffpowers Frets: 344
    Given its build, quality, feature set and sound, would you go for it or reccomend something else?
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583
    Fenderish said:
    I think you'll find that the preamp works at usual plate voltages whereas power tubes work at lower plate voltages than usual on 20W mode et even lower on 5W mode...
    Well that's how santiago explained it at least...


    I would expect pre-amp to be normal Superlead voltages or they'd have to play around a lot to keep the headroom and gain structure the same.  I'd also expect 20W mode to be less than a normal Superlead, maybe around 400V.  ICBM was saying the lower 5W mode was actually just lower drive - preset master volume - rather than reduced power.



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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    edited April 2019
    Given its build, quality, feature set and sound, would you go for it or reccomend something else?
    I don't know. It depends what you want... it does sound like a smaller Super Lead, but that's both good and bad. If you want the classic overdriven Plexi sound at sensible volume it's pretty close and does sound great. But for me it's too limited to that - difficult to get a truly clean sound, and too mushy when it's pushed hard trying to get a thicker modern drive, with an irritating harsh top-end (this bit is also true of a full-size Super Lead, for me). I still like an old 50W better, even though they're bigger and heavier - and to my surprise, I think I prefer the 2061 as well even though I always expected to like this one better because of its full tone stack.

    Of the amps I've played which are roughly comparable in power and circuit I prefer the (sadly discontinued) Orange Rocker 30, although that's cheating in a way because it has a separate clean channel. I haven't played the Laney LA30BL yet but I have a suspicion I might like that better too from what I've heard in clips.

    I'll have to try the JCM800 one at some point - from the Marshall demos I thought this one sounded better, but my favourite Marshall of all is a JMP 2203...

    springhead said:

    ICBM was saying the lower 5W mode was actually just lower drive - preset master volume - rather than reduced power.
    I thought so from where the relay is on the PCB, but I was definitely wrong! Earlier posts now edited :).

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951
    Part 4 - techy stuff

     Power valve plate voltage in 20W mode - 288V 
    Power valve plate voltage in 5W mode - 174V

    Screen voltage in 20W mode - 281V
    Screen voltage in 5W mode - 170V

    Phase inverter plate voltages in 20W mode - 183V and 174V
    Phase inverter plate voltages in 5W mode - 115V and 111V

    Cathode follower plate voltages in 20W mode - 166V and 265V
    Cathode follower plate voltages in 5W mode - 182V and 295V

    V1 plate voltages in 20W mode - 150V and 152V
    V1 plate voltages in 5W mode - 166V and 167V

    So it is in fact a 'power scaling' arrangement not a virtual MV. The preamp voltages are roughly comparable with a full-size Super Lead, and the rise in the V1 and V2 voltages in 5W mode will be due to the lower current rather than deliberate switching - or that would be getting very complicated indeed.

    Interesting, and not what I expected at all! But it does confirm what I've always thought, that power scaling sounds more like a master volume control and not as good as attenuation...

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • TwinfanTwinfan Frets: 1625
    That explains why I don't like 5w mode on my Mini Jubes - I don't think Power Scaling ever sounds good! I don't like attenuation either actually, a plain old Master Volume works better for me.

    Interesting info - thanks  :)
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  • springheadspringhead Frets: 1583

    Wow, under 300V for the '34 anodes.  Didn't expect that.  I guess lower voltage filter caps and lower impedance OT will save some cost. 

    Is the 5W mode just reducing the final anode/screen supply or is it also reducing the drive to compensate?  Probably hard to tell without fully tracing it out.

    I've played with power scaling in a variety of guitar amp circuits.  It works a treat in my 5E3, scaling the whole amp.  Also pretty good in an own design SE low watt amp.  I built it into a JTM 45, just scaling the PA and good for moderate power reduction.  Horses for courses, or amps.

    Thanks for measuring that, interesting stuff.

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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 71951

    Is the 5W mode just reducing the final anode/screen supply or is it also reducing the drive to compensate?

    It's definitely reducing the PI voltages as well, but not the preamp - the FX loop send level remains the same at both settings. Given that it does appear to be switched with one relay - the other is definitely for the FX loop, you can hear it clicking when you push the button - there's a limit to how complex it can be.

    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski

    "Just because I don't care, doesn't mean I don't understand." - Homer Simpson

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  • riffpowersriffpowers Frets: 344
    edited April 2019
    ICBM said:
    Given its build, quality, feature set and sound, would you go for it or reccomend something else?
    I don't know. It depends what you want... it does sound like a smaller Super Lead, but that's both good and bad. If you want the classic overdriven Plexi sound at sensible volume it's pretty close and does sound great. But for me it's too limited to that - difficult to get a truly clean sound, and too mushy when it's pushed hard trying to get a thicker modern drive, with an irritating harsh top-end (this bit is also true of a full-size Super Lead, for me). I still like an old 50W better, even though they're bigger and heavier - and to my surprise, I think I prefer the 2061 as well even though I always expected to like this one better because of its full tone stack.

    Of the amps I've played which are roughly comparable in power and circuit I prefer the (sadly discontinued) Orange Rocker 30, although that's cheating in a way because it has a separate clean channel. I haven't played the Laney LA30BL yet but I have a suspicion I might like that better too from what I've heard in clips.

    I'll have to try the JCM800 one at some point - from the Marshall demos I thought this one sounded better, but my favourite Marshall of all is a JMP 2203...

    springhead said:

    ICBM was saying the lower 5W mode was actually just lower drive - preset master volume - rather than reduced power.
    I thought so from where the relay is on the PCB, but I was definitely wrong! Earlier posts now edited .
    @ICBM ;The JCM800 is pretty much my favourite amp of all time, they're just too big!!!

    You've always spoken highly of the rocker 30, 
    I've been playing through a borrowed rocker 30 combo quite a bit lately at band practices.
    I find that the EQ seems to be very "warm" sounding, and I'm struggling to get the kind of upper mid detail and punch that you get from a typical" brit" sounding amp. 
    Does that sound about right?? I'd like to get a bit more upper mid sizzle in there if I could.




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  • martinwmartinw Frets: 2149
    tFB Trader
    ICBM said:
     But it does confirm what I've always thought, that power scaling sounds more like a master volume control and not as good as attenuation...

    It might confirm your opinion in your own mind, but that's all! ;)

    I find it hard to understand how you can say that, but then I'm speaking for my own PS installations and can't answer for some others, and I have heard some less-than-great iterations of VVR/VAC etc. The way it appears to be implemented in that amp for instance, isn't what I would call good.

    Most of the installations I do have both PS and  master volume, as I favour the 2-knob system. Like you I think PS or attenuation is best served by balancing against the MV, especially at low volumes.

    However on an amp with both PS and MV, you can directly compare the effect of one and the other, and how anyone could think they sound anything like the same confuses me.

    Anyway, this is off-topic, so apologies, but I feel someone has to contradict @ICBM now and then, otherwise these things become accepted wisdom. :) I also don't have an issue with JJ preamp valves. :D

    By the way, I'm not a zealot for PS, despite having installed it hundreds of times. It's a useful tool that some like and some don't, some have a use for, some don't.


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  • Given its build, quality, feature set and sound, would you go for it or reccomend something else?
    Kinda interested in this in the context of vs the Astoria Custom. Just had to send the latter back due to a fault and opted to do so under refund since I’m away for a bit shortly and would struggle to test the replacement before being away, so got chance to think options again anyway - even if I just end up with another Astoria Custom once back.

    They’re comparative prices at the moment so seems like a fair question to be honest.
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