Do you think you need to live and breathe [insert genre here] in order to compose said genre?

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Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
Something I'm curious about, that relates to discussions I've been having with a lot of people recently. This idea that you've got to know what you're doing in order to make a good representation of a genre. Lets say you were to make a jazz song... some have the idea that you really need to have been playing jazz for a number of years and be familiar with it in order to nail it.

I'm not sure about that. I think music has rules, and once you know the rules, you can get pretty damn close. Certain schools of jazz use certain types of progressions, chord structures, and playing styles that result in the sound of "jazz" ... but trying to convince people of this, I come up against "well go and do it then"

So what do you think? Can a rocker do jazz without eating, sleeping, and breathing jazz? Vice versa too of course!
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    Yes.
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    The Beatles did great songs in loads of different genres, they were freaking geniuses though.

    Jazz is probably a somewhat extreme example as you need quite a bit of chord knowledge.
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  • spark240spark240 Frets: 2073
    No..eg I dont think I could say that I am proficient in any genre, but I can write pieces in the "style of", and thats good enough for me. 

    That is a very heavy question you have asked, no doubt it will spark some opinions !


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  • randomhandclapsrandomhandclaps Frets: 20521

    Yes.  I think if the knowledge of music in general is great enough then you can apply it to any genre without having to live in that genre.

    I have to write a hell of a lot of stuff in other styles to feed the kiddies.  Although I find it difficult to produce a singular piece that I wouldn't choose to listen to (I think your heart being in a piece is a big part),  plenty of stuff the I have to do does not fall into genres I wouldn't choose to listen to. 

    A strong theoretical knowledge makes the whole process easier and quicker, but creative ability is still essential. 

    By a 'friend of a friend tells a friend' type arrangement I fell in to recording, but particularly mixing and producing a lot of artists of the noise and soundscape scene.  Similarly my cousin (out of nowhere) became quite big on the underground rap scene and I ended up helping out him and a lot of his contemporaries.  Both are far from music that I eat, sleep and breath.  A lot of these guys are full of ideas but very limited on classic musical ability.  What I have found essential to adapting to other styles that you may have limited knowledge of is not just breaking it down to cold musical technicalities, but to be open-minded enough to ask "What is it that makes this appealing to people?".  That's why when people say "I don't like artist x because I am so high brow I can spot all the mistakes.", in my personal opinion they are missing the main core of why people choose to listen to music/art.

    It's difficult to say how essential it is but I do find myself spending a few days listening to similar material.  Part of this is to see what is going on currently, but I am sure another part is for me to enter the right headspace and start thinking in that style.  I have under pressure skipped this step or literally had half an hour on the way to the studio to do it but I probably feel things come easier when I have prepared myself.

    My muse is not a horse and art is not a race.
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  • thecolourboxthecolourbox Frets: 9654
    I don't think you do, i rarely listen to jazz for example but the most well paid work ive ever done in music was as a jazz pianist. If you have a decent musical ear you can lean towards whichever style i reckon. There's both methods, immersion or cherry picking
    Please note my communication is not very good, so please be patient with me
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    I often find attempting to ape a particular song or style, and then missing slightly often results in something unique and interesting. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 10647
    I think you do have to understand it deeply to be able to write in it. But of course, that you can also invent your own fusion by, for example, improvising in blues over a jazz standard, which can sound interesting and be very rewarding to play.
    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    I tend to think that whilst you do need a cursory understanding of the forms, but what is much much more important is having a ear for the target you're trying to hit and knowing how to get there.

    I'm not even necessarily talking about something that is creatively fulfilling or aiming for new territory. I'm talking about being able to hit an archetype of a genre, whether it is jazz, funk, prog, metal, dubstep, whatever.

    The assertion I'm running into is that you need to be utterly experienced and somewhat specialized in order to pull it off. I don't buy it.
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    I reckon it's a combination of experience and influences. 

    Anyone relatively experienced could probably produce something that would be identified as belonging to any given genre. 

    ......But I think a genre which overlaps with your influences is where you're likely to produce better quality results. 

    So in other words I could write a jazz song, but it probably won't be as good as my metal songs :)

    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • axisusaxisus Frets: 28280
    I think that amateurs can wing it and it sounds OK, but the higher up you get on the pro scale the more distant you can sound from the 'real deal'. I cringe a bit when I think of say Rush's attempts at Reggae, or Queen with basically everything off of Hot Space.
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  • IanSavageIanSavage Frets: 1319
    I can write and sing a passable blues, but even when I'm technically up to the task I pale into insignificance alongside the likes of Aynsley Listeer, Matt Schofield or Ian Seigal who DO live and breathe it. There's a certain indefinable 'something' that you get from immersing yourself in a genre that's difficult to fake.
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  • EricTheWearyEricTheWeary Frets: 16253

    IanSavage said:
    I can write and sing a passable blues, but even when I'm technically up to the task I pale into insignificance alongside the likes of Aynsley Listeer, Matt Schofield or Ian Seigal who DO live and breathe it. There's a certain indefinable 'something' that you get from immersing yourself in a genre that's difficult to fake.
    Oh, you did your support to Mr Seigal this week didn't you? How was that?  I would have loved to have gone but the day of my wedding anniversary it was never going to happen. So, happy anniversary to MrsTheWeary and me whilst I'm on the subject!
    8-X

    Anyhoo, this Discussion got me thinking about Spinal Tap as an ( slightly random) example. I've always felt it was the product of some people (or someone) who really loved and knew Heavy Metal ( the 1970's and early 1980's versions thereof). Without that authenticity the humour in the music wouldn't work. It's not just spoof it is heavy metal with another element added and added succesfully.So you have that mixture of immersion that Drew is discussing plus a fresh element.I guess you need that balance between immersion and the ability to bring a new perspective otherwise you are just rehashing the genre cliches.

    In contrast the axisus example of Rush ( or 10CC or lots of people) doing bad reggae - it doesn't bring anything new to reggae because it is horrendously inauthentic. That probably wasn't their intent but it doesn't bring much new to their rock music either because it is just bolted on: they didn't learn anything from it ( as it appears to me). 

    Having said that I guess there are notable succesfull failures - bands like The Kinks developed their own style as a result of being very, very bad at playing blues.

    I'll stop wittering now...
    3:-O
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  • NPPNPP Frets: 236
    I think if you are just doing something 'in the style of ...' with a rather limited understanding of it there's a risk of it sounding like elevator music. I really can't stand fake blues, soul, funk played by people who think these things are easily done by following a few rules. 

    On the other hand, if you want to incorporate elements from a different style into your own material, you are free to do what you want, you define the genre!

    I have never been a creative or innovative type, I'm content to strive to understand how stuff worked in the past but obviously many real musicians would find this restrictive. 

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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    axisus said:
    I think that amateurs can wing it and it sounds OK, but the higher up you get on the pro scale the more distant you can sound from the 'real deal'. I cringe a bit when I think of say Rush's attempts at Reggae, or Queen with basically everything off of Hot Space.
    I don't think it's really to do with amateur and pro but actually more a flaw with certain types of technically proficient musicians. I think reproducing a style by consciously analysing it is always doomed to failure. 
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 3822
    I kind of agree with your friends. You might be able to bring it down to a set of rules but even just to learn those rules you would need to feel pretty passionately about the type of music. 

    Personally I think it's largely about expression, conveying emotion/experience. For the blues I would imagine it is easier to write a sad song/piece of music when you are sad, or at least have memories to draw from. Of course it should be easier to draw from experiences like addiction and real hardship than, say, the loss of a pet hamster...but not impossible.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    I guess I'm risking embarrassment and a tongue lashing here, but I wasn't really buying it. So I thought I would try my hand at some slow droney jazz...

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/k8qg0q86fjlepbs/DroneyJaath.mp3
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    That bad huh? lol. Fuuuuuuu-
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  • LastMantraLastMantra Frets: 3822
    Personally I prefer some of your other stuff. I'm not a big jazz fan though. 

    It certainly sounded very well performed and put together to me.
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  • johnnyurqjohnnyurq Frets: 1368
    As Johnny hates Jazz not able to be objective at all, but at least you had a go.

    I wouldn't know good jazz from bad so yours may very well be genius.

    In short, niiice!!
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  • guitarfishbayguitarfishbay Frets: 7953
    edited May 2014
    I'm basically a rock musician with little formal training (grade 1 Theory, Grade 2 piano, GCSE in Music, never used sheet music with guitar lessons), but I often write random sketches that have nothing to do with anything, inspired by whatever really.  I tend to write in my head, and my hard drive is full of half finished experiments...  I feel like the only thing that limits me is my own imagination, which I guess in turn is fuelled by my own experiences of music.  Anyway since Drew posted an example I will post some older stuff done a few years ago in non rock styles.

    Here's something chilled and 'jazzy' I wrote, don't think the guitar is especially authentic (and it wasn't my goal) but I think the feel of the backing is about right.  https://www.dropbox.com/s/xvl4un5s4qr1syr/laid back.mp3

    Here's something I wrote imagining a sad montage in a film https://www.dropbox.com/s/h26gwekn2s59yi7/fazmosphere.mp3

    Recently I've been pretty busy writing stuff for my band.  I've arranged our set for electric, acoustic, and taken the main themes and created film style interludes which may or may not ever get used but I just felt like doing them.  Here is the film style outro for a ballad track.

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