What do you think makes a good guitarist/bassist?

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Not looking for a list of the 'best' but rather what characteristics you think are needed for a guitarist/bassist to be 'good'.  This question is particularly aimed at gigging musicians and those like @Danny1969 who have recording studios. 
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    One important rule for me is a guitarist or bass player has to know their instrument, where every note is etc. I really hate working with people who learnt from tab, it creates a language barrier in bands and is generally really unprofessional
    Live and studio playing is quite different and a lot of guys who are great live tend to be not so great in the studio. Small timing discrepancies, inconsistent dynamics, bad intonation and other stuff can get lost in a live mix so if the players got good stage presence and adds excitement then that can be an acceptable trade off  

    Studio bass players and guitarist are generally very precise, their timing is impeccable, they pick consistently in volume and tone and intonate themselves  accurately all over the neck. 

    Here's a bit of both, a bunch of session muso's operating as a band in 2020 





     
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • Good reply, Danny.. And makes me realise I'll only ever be a weekend warrior, which I'm fine with!
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    I think good is difficult to define. It depends what you are doing.

    Guy Pratt's (top session bass dude) book is quite interesting. He tallies with what Danny says that even in real top flight bands it's not essential that you are the best musician in the world, more that you are reliable, easy to get on with and have some stage presence. 

    I think if you are a "name" studio session player then it's about doing what it is that you do better than anyone else and if you are a regular session player it's about working out a part very quickly and getting it right first time in any style so you keep studio costs down.

    As a guitarist I think a lot of what I bring to the table is a really long way from the guitar hero stuff. I'm a fairly mediocre lead guitarist, but I know my rhythm playing is tight as fuck, I learn stuff quick, I turn up when I say I will and I'm not a prima donna. I also think non guitarist stuff is really important as a musician like being able to sing backing vocals, use a mixing desk, use pro tools, book gigs, create a website. 

    I played with a pro drummer for a while who said he liked working with me. Unlike a lot of the pro guitarists he worked with I can't play Steve Vai solos, but I was tight enough on the material we were doing, didn't have an ego and didn't want to solo all over everything.
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  • Tex MexicoTex Mexico Frets: 1196
    - Talent
    - Hard work
    - Taste

    If one of those three are missing, you have (in order) an adequate-at-best pub rocker, a tragic waste of potential, or a prog-jazz noodler. If only one is of the three is present you end up with (in order) a 1% genius, a joyless bore, or someone who probably never picked up a guitar in the first place.

    Get all three though and the rest is just individual personality traits.
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  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    I think if you are a "name" studio session player then it's about doing what it is that you do better than anyone else and if you are a regular session player it's about working out a part very quickly and getting it right first time in any style so you keep studio costs down.

    Yes, and there are not really very many studio / session guitarists earning a decent living. It is a very small pool of highly talented players.


     I'm a fairly mediocre lead guitarist, but I know my rhythm playing is tight as fuck, I learn stuff quick, I turn up when I say I will and I'm not a prima donna.
    .. I can't play Steve Vai solos, but I was tight enough on the material we were doing, didn't have an ego and didn't want to solo all over everything.
    That's how I think of myself in a band context.
    :)


    I also think non guitarist stuff is really important as a musician like being able to sing backing vocals, use a mixing desk, use pro tools, book gigs, create a website. 
    I can't sing (wish I could, but I'm tuneless) .... I should learn the technical skills, a mix desk is still a mystery to me ... a very good point made here


    - Talent
    - Hard work
    - Taste
    Concise and relavant.
    You need some skills.
    You must do your homework.
    You gotta play sympathetically to the song and the others in the band.


    As monquixote suggests, most of the talent - for band work & live playing - has to do with being a good rhythm player.

    99.9999999% of your time is spent playing rhythm ... (caveat - unless you're in a band whose music entails loads of solos and instrumental breaks).
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    - Talent
    - Hard work
    - Taste

    If one of those three are missing, you have (in order) an adequate-at-best pub rocker, a tragic waste of potential, or a prog-jazz noodler. If only one is of the three is present you end up with (in order) a 1% genius, a joyless bore, or someone who probably never picked up a guitar in the first place.

    Get all three though and the rest is just individual personality traits.
    And if all three are missing then ... you get me. :)
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  • martmart Frets: 5205
    close2u said:

    99.9999999% of your time is spent playing rhythm ... (caveat - unless you're in a band whose music entails loads of solos and instrumental breaks).
    Or you're playing Hank in a Shadows tribute band.
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  • DeijavooDeijavoo Frets: 3298
    Danny1969 said:
    I really hate working with people who learnt from tab, it creates a language barrier in bands and is generally really unprofessional



     
    I learnt from tab and I would totally disagree on this from my personal experience. However I do get what you mean. 

    I think the key difference is that it doesn't matter how you learned as long as you also studied the theory to back it up. 
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    I find it really surprising that they exist, but I know some people who've auditioned some really technically capable guitarists and said "could you play and A rather than a B there" and discovered that they don't know what the notes on the neck are. You don't have to be able to read music but if you don't know the fifth fret on the E string is an A you are going to to struggle in a band.
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  • Drew_TNBDDrew_TNBD Frets: 22445
    edited August 2014
    I'd semi-disagree with a lot of what Danny wrote. For an originals band all you need is good ears. I don't care if someone can read music from a bit of paper, I care that they can articulate the sound and vibe that is in their head and in their soul.

    You can be as technically capable as you like, but if that only translates to being academically impressive, then you're a waste of time as a musician imho.

    Music is supposed to make peoples hearts and minds soar. It's supposed to purge the audience of all their woes and stresses in that moment, and take them to another place. Doesn't matter if it is a 3 minute pop song or an 18 minute prog-rock extravaganza. They're both doing the same thing for the listener.

    So ears. And the ability to use them. That's the only criteria in my book.

    It's not as black and white as that though, and of course for myself there are some technical requirements I ask of people joining the band, and ones that I ask of myself too. Precision is one of them, groove, and the ability to lay back in the mix or come to the forefront when needed - doesn't matter what instrument. Tight timing, no sloppy notes, ability to tune the instrument, etc.. etc.. But I consider that stuff to be pretty universal for musicianship.
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  • digitalscreamdigitalscream Frets: 26460
    We're half-heartedly looking for another guitarist at the moment (I say "half-heartedly, because I quite like our sound as a 4-piece), and I can honestly say that I don't give a damn about being able to name notes on the fretboard. Focusing on the instrument, what I want is for somebody who can:

    - Pick up riffs/passages by watching me play them
    - Play accurately and cleanly
    - Have the right mix of "bounce" and aggression in their playing where necessary
    - Have a good feel for the music - not the usual emotional twaddle, but actually being able to feel the pulse of a song and be able to play in the same vein
    - Use their equipment to good effect - they have to know their amp, their pedals and their guitar so that if I describe a sound, they can make it happen

    No, I'm not a complete control freak, but if they can do all these things with my direction to begin with, then it's a pretty safe bet they'll be able to come up with stuff that works themselves when they get involved in the writing process.
    <space for hire>
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  • monquixotemonquixote Frets: 17485
    tFB Trader
    I completely agree on the listening thing. 

    That's one of the biggest things I've noticed about playing with pros. It's not the mastery of the instrument that's impressive it's how quickly they respond to every little change. You play a fill and they seamlessly accent it. The vocalist pulls back and they drop the level to compensate. You play something on the first verse and they remember it and complement when you play it next time.

    I think one of the best reasons to develop good technique is not so you can play mega flashy stuff it's to get to the point where you have significant mental resources free when playing stuff to listen and respond to what the other musicians are doing.
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357

    @Drew_fx I'm into original writing, I almost got enough stuff to record another album. Your right having a good ear is a great thing, being able to come up with creative and memorable hooks is an important thing but when you work with other muso's it's a lot easier to get your ideas across if you both speak the same language. 
    If you know where the notes are on a guitar and a bit of theory you can also work out counter melodies and harmonies a lot quicker. You can transpose your guitar ideas to keyboards and other instruments.

    I'm not saying you gotta be able to read notation or be able to play all through the modes ....... I'm just saying you should know where the notes are if you don't don't want to look stupid when asked to play em
     
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    My biggest gripe is people who think that when jamming playing is more important than listening and people who cant either play simple parts or nothing when the song demands.

    Also hate people who become really precious about their part and won't abandon it when it doesn;t fit with what everyone else is doing.
    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • DeijavooDeijavoo Frets: 3298
    My biggest gripe is people who think that when jamming playing is more important than listening and people who cant either play simple parts or nothing when the song demands.

    Also hate people who become really precious about their part and won't abandon it when it doesn;t fit with what everyone else is doing.
    This in bloody spades!!
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357


    Deijavoo said:
    My biggest gripe is people who think that when jamming playing is more important than listening and people who cant either play simple parts or nothing when the song demands.

    Also hate people who become really precious about their part and won't abandon it when it doesn;t fit with what everyone else is doing.
    This in bloody spades!!

    This is one of the reasons it's generally not a good idea for bands to produce their own music. People can come too close to the parts they have written and become incapable of hearing the product as a whole. Impartial ears dismiss things easier.
    But that's probably another thread
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • PolarityManPolarityMan Frets: 7273
    Danny1969 said:


    Deijavoo said:
    My biggest gripe is people who think that when jamming playing is more important than listening and people who cant either play simple parts or nothing when the song demands.

    Also hate people who become really precious about their part and won't abandon it when it doesn;t fit with what everyone else is doing.
    This in bloody spades!!

    This is one of the reasons it's generally not a good idea for bands to produce their own music. People can come too close to the parts they have written and become incapable of hearing the product as a whole. Impartial ears dismiss things easier.
    But that's probably another thread
    I've never worked with someone who has produced on that level but I imagine that it takes a fair bit of trust. for professional bands producers are clearly obviously selected for heritage in the genre which brings with it a great deal opf credibility. 

    In my experience recording in several studios as an amateur band most guys focus on doing the engineering and mixing side but are hesitant to get involved in the production side....I guess partly because they have had so many bands throw their suggestions back in their face.

    I kind of feel at the bottom of the market there isn't enough genre differentiation..so as a band you go in and record with a guy who has never even heard of half your influences / references and there's a tendency to get this kind of adversarial atmosphere between the band and the guy recording if they suggest change to parts because the band think they don't "get" what they're trying to do.

    So while I totally agree it would be hugely beneficial to work with a producer I think identifying and affording an appropriate one at the amateur level is pretty difficult.

    The other thing of course is budget, most of the times I've been into the studio we've only been able to afford enough time to jsut cover tracking and maybe some experimentation with vocal harmonies.

    This is just an idea.... but do you think it's viable for studios to offer some kind of reduced price "pre-production" service where you could reduce time by not focusing too much on mic setup, getting the sounds, track the whole band at once, maybe a couple of takes of each song, no overdubs, no quad tracking and tightening up parts etc and then spend some time reviewing the tracks pointing out which parts clash, where you might introduce additional parts for texture, problems with the source sounds etc.

    I feel like it's a market section that isn't covered, although I confess I'm not sure what the demand would be like.


    ဈǝᴉʇsɐoʇǝsǝǝɥɔဪቌ
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 10357
    edited August 2014
    @PolarityMan :

    A lot of bands iron out the arrangement by recording to 2 room mics, that can be enough to identify which bits clash and which bits are just filler so can be cut. Tracking the whole band at once to multitrack  is also another option but as that takes up a control room and a live room it's no cheaper than standard hourly rate

    The biggest thing with getting a band to accept and trust a producer is to first get them to understand why they need a producer. They generally think they write the music so they obviously know exactly how it should be arranged and often exactly how it should be mixed. I normally say that's fine if we are making a record that is for band consumption only but if they actually want a broad range of people to enjoy it we need to make it more palatable for everyone. When that's done well you often end up with something the band sometimes doesn't like 100% but their target audience does and that's the point. 
    The best projects I have been involved with are the ones that were re arranged, edit'ed and mixed while the band weren't there. I find a lot of band members can't listen to music as a whole, they zone in on their own parts and a lot of their suggestions are geared towards that. There are exceptions of course, some musicians are talented producers as well (I'm not)  


    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • Some people do have a very real chemistry - look at Flea and Chad.  They go together beautifully.

    Same with John Paul Jones and Bonham. 

    Flea and JF was a great pairing, too.  

    Folk like this seem to be able to play for 'the song' or 'the groove' or whatever, rather than writing a part and making sure everyone else works around it.  


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