Buggera / Behringer have an original idea. Not.

jpfamps

I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery............

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/bugera-g20-infinuim-guitar-amplifier-head/

ThePrettyDamned

jpfamps said:

I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery............

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/bugera-g20-infinuim-guitar-amplifier-head/

Is that a HT20 copy?

HT amps, while not uber cheap, are hardly mega bucks... And were designed with reliability in mind.  Why go for a cheaper version that could compromise that?

Apparently, Bugera have stepped up their game. And I'm not totally against some of the amps - they offer Marshall clones that are affordable, primarily because Marshall won't bloody well do it themselves! They're known for breaking down, though...

ecc83

Only a matter of time friend.

They already have a rip of the HT-5 but Bs tell me that unless they try to market them in UK (EU?) there is little they can do.I suppose Behringer have spotted a  rather unique product but one from someone too small financially to fight back internationally?

Dave.

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

Is that a HT20 copy?

Yes.

ThePrettyDamned said:

HT amps, while not uber cheap, are hardly mega bucks... And were designed with reliability in mind.  Why go for a cheaper version that could compromise that?

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin (supposedly)

ThePrettyDamned said:

Apparently, Bugera have stepped up their game. And I'm not totally against some of the amps - they offer Marshall clones that are affordable, primarily because Marshall won't bloody well do it themselves! They're known for breaking down, though…

Accurate copies, then .

If anything the Bugeras I've seen are actually slightly better-made than most modern Marshall, which is somewhat sad and ironic.

ThePrettyDamned

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Is that a HT20 copy?

Yes.

ThePrettyDamned said:

HT amps, while not uber cheap, are hardly mega bucks... And were designed with reliability in mind.  Why go for a cheaper version that could compromise that?

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin (supposedly)

ThePrettyDamned said:

Apparently, Bugera have stepped up their game. And I'm not totally against some of the amps - they offer Marshall clones that are affordable, primarily because Marshall won't bloody well do it themselves! They're known for breaking down, though…

Accurate copies, then .

If anything the Bugeras I've seen are actually slightly better-made than most modern Marshall, which is somewhat sad and ironic.

Ouch. 

I used to want one of these:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/behringer-bugera-1960-classic-150/20727?gclid=CjwKEAjwwtOsBRDdjZTbvYvTlzcSJADOY0DRX1KX4QGSCmjuiO6VM1RLlnlWbC0uQ8H2CMNe76FYqhoC1Mfw_wcB

but I'm scared of explosions.  

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

I used to want one of these:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/behringer-bugera-1960-classic-150/20727?gclid=CjwKEAjwwtOsBRDdjZTbvYvTlzcSJADOY0DRX1KX4QGSCmjuiO6VM1RLlnlWbC0uQ8H2CMNe76FYqhoC1Mfw_wcB

but I'm scared of explosions.  

"Related products and accessories: Alpine EAR001 Ear Plugs  Add for £17.00"

)

jpttaylor

Morph EQ eh?

Bit of a weird one this I think though. Blackstar are hardly in the boutique price range and Behrigner will have to do a bit of work to undercut them. Even if they do scrimp on some elements of the design, Blackstar are probably some of the most reliable amps being made today. I used to own a HT-5 combo and it was built to a superb standard - a real quality piece of kit.

jpfamps

someone too small financially to fight back internationally?

Dave.

I suspect there aren't many (any?) manufacturers who could afford to take on Behringer.

Mind you,I suspect many who complain about them ripping off their designs own Behringer kit.....

p90fool

Are Blackstar that "True Valve Power" company?

Fair game then as far as I'm concerned.

ecc83

"Is that a HT20 copy?"

Not quite. Externally it looks as tho' they have fitted a standby switch which causes me to ask if the amp has the same "no load" protection gate as the original? I would also guess it will be wholly cathode biased without the bias trim and balance circuits.

I suspect Blackstar have been chosen because of the reason I gave, too small to fight it (yeah JPF, Mackie had a go and they are much richer than Bs!) . Then the products are somewhat unique, the Five certainly is. Be interesting to see how closely they have stuck to/ripped off the original circuitry.

But now! IIRC Sweetwater claim to be a "Christian" company? I wonder if they know of Blackstar UK? Maybe they are like politicians? Go to prayers in the Commons then steal food from children.

About a year or so ago I/we thought Behringer had "seen the light" SoS magazine had only good things to say about their very cost effective and truly original digital mixer. There was much interesting discussion with the mag and Uli and he agreed to come in for a live chat.....Bottled it!

Dave.

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

I suspect Blackstar have been chosen because of the reason I gave, too small to fight it (yeah JPF, Mackie had a go and they are much richer than Bs!) . Then the products are somewhat unique, the Five certainly is. Be interesting to see how closely they have stuck to/ripped off the original circuitry.

Were richer than Blackstar!

I don't think that Blackstar were chosen because they were small, I suspect Uli looked at how many HT20s where being sold.

Regardless, I don't think Blackstar have any IP that could be protected in by legal action.

Jeremiah

I wonder what (if anything) the T5 is a copy of - it kind of looks like a Vox Night Train, but with only a single output valve I assume it's single ended rather than push pull; it's also not a direct copy of the Tubemeister 5 as that has a 12BH7 power valve while this is an EL84.

ecc83

"Regardless, I don't think Blackstar have any IP that could be protected in by legal action."

I think in this country at least they could bring a case of "passing off"? I am sure Blackstar will have all their design drawings copyrighted.

Had they just ripped the internals but re-modelled the case that would be a whole other ball game but  Behringer are clearly hoping to gain sales from the look!

Dave.

ICBM

Jeremiah said:

I wonder what (if anything) the T5 is a copy of - it kind of looks like a Vox Night Train, but with only a single output valve I assume it's single ended rather than push pull; it's also not a direct copy of the Tubemeister 5 as that has a 12BH7 power valve while this is an EL84.

It looks similar to a Li'l Night Train with a digital reverb fitted, but it must be quite different inside - maybe more like the Hayden Mighty Mofo 5. There's nothing to say Behringer can't steal elements from more than one design .

It must be at least partly solid-state, too - there won't be enough gain from just one 12AX7 to give 'modern high gain' and a tone stack, plus a reverb mixer stage.

The BS starts in the first line of the description - "hand-built". No it isn't. Anyone who writes "phat" on an amp needs to be shot on sight anyway…

samzadgan

ThePrettyDamned said:

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Is that a HT20 copy?

Yes.

ThePrettyDamned said:

HT amps, while not uber cheap, are hardly mega bucks... And were designed with reliability in mind.  Why go for a cheaper version that could compromise that?

"There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are this man's lawful prey." - John Ruskin (supposedly)

ThePrettyDamned said:

Apparently, Bugera have stepped up their game. And I'm not totally against some of the amps - they offer Marshall clones that are affordable, primarily because Marshall won't bloody well do it themselves! They're known for breaking down, though…

Accurate copies, then .

If anything the Bugeras I've seen are actually slightly better-made than most modern Marshall, which is somewhat sad and ironic.

Ouch. 

I used to want one of these:

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/behringer-bugera-1960-classic-150/20727?gclid=CjwKEAjwwtOsBRDdjZTbvYvTlzcSJADOY0DRX1KX4QGSCmjuiO6VM1RLlnlWbC0uQ8H2CMNe76FYqhoC1Mfw_wcB

but I'm scared of explosions.  

i think thats was something with the older models...the newer ones from everything i've read have been very reliable. there's also the stigma that the far east are copying these classic amps, and if something goes wrong with a few then "lets blow it out of proportion so hopefully it doesnt succeed" type mentality with these too. I see that on a lot of US forums, because there is a big "Buy US made" or "US Made is Better" attitude towards gear...and although i get it, and in some cases its right that something made in the US or UK is better, but not everyone can afford the price tag that goes with it...

Lets face it, companies in the east have done this with every other product...TV's, home appliances, cars etc...their first entries into the market were just copies of something that someone else had made, and made cheaper and sold cheaper. Over the yearsa lot of them have morphed into being much better quality and innovative manufacturers...maybe in 20 years time they will be the same with guitar gear too.

ICBM

I certainly haven't seen any dead Bugeras recently. It looks like they have taken heed of the early reliability issues and sorted them out.

There's absolutely no reason the Chinese can't make things as well as anyone else, if they're given the right specifications. I know that can be frustrating for those of us who would rather support our own workers, but it's a plain fact that we pay ourselves a lot more than the Chinese do, and for something where the technology is so mature it really comes down to labour cost more than anything.

Of course you can always over-engineer something to guarantee reliability, but that puts the cost up. It's quite an art to make things that are just reliable enough to do the job but no more expensive than they need to be, and you can approach it from either direction -historically the original western manufacturers started from best quality and then made things cheaper, and the far-east ones started from lowest cost and then made them better, but they all end up in about the same place eventually.

ecc83

"historically the original western manufacturers started from best quality and then made things cheaper,"

Ooo! Have to question that IC! Whilst there were some makers building BSH quality radios, there was a hell of a ;lot of crap!  The radios got smaller as octal valves gave way to novals and the small cabinets did not allow good airflow. The early printed circuits were dreadful. Tracks would cook, dry and lift in hot spots.

Televisions were worse! The huge rental market made it necessary to build sets as cheaply as possible. One "clever" design technique comes to mind.. Main smoothing caps were rated at 275V not the 340V+ indicated by peak rectified 240V, why? Cheaper of course but the fact is the leakage current of an electrolytic skyrockets when you exceed the V rating and so the caps did double duty as a HT limiters! Naturally they were fairly early casualties!

No, sorry "domestic" electronics in UK was pared to the bone. Continental stuff was better but it was the Japanese that showed the way as they did with bikes and cars.

I was not working on guitar amplifiers during this period but what I saw of British audio such as tape recorders did not inspire! Crappy transport mechanisms using bits of bent tin. Capstan motors were cheap open frame types that you could find in fan heaters. Did not compare at all with a Grundig and a Revox came from another planet!

Dave.

ICBM

Ah, but that wasn't the original - that's the second generation mass-production stuff. I agree totally about the poor quality by then - the early PCB era was the worst of the lot. (For guitar amps too.)

We led the way in making things cheaper and worse - and went too far, just as some of our guitar amp manufacturers have done. The same was actually true as far back as the Victorian age - we started well, captured the world market, then rapidly became a byword for shoddy quality.

jpfamps

ecc83 said:

ICBM said:

Ah, but that wasn't the original - that's the second generation mass-production stuff. I agree totally about the poor quality by then - the early PCB era was the worst of the lot. (For guitar amps too.)

We led the way in making things cheaper and worse - and went too far, just as some of our guitar amp manufacturers have done. The same was actually true as far back as the Victorian age - we started well, captured the world market, then rapidly became a byword for shoddy quality.

Indeed.

In the 19th Century Germany had a reputation for make cheap shoddy goods compared with British-made goods.

Sadly this trend very much reversed in the 20th Century.

I think part of the problem with British goods has been penny pinching in the production stage; as you say we led the way in making things cheaper.

Grumpyrocker

I am shocked, shocked, that an amp maker is copying another. Shocked.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

The BS starts in the first line of the description

Wow, they even ripped off BS's marketing?