The Rugby Union Thread

Fretwired

hywelg

Time for Wales to make some difficult decisions. Gatland did not prepare the team properly. His tactics all season have been wrong. Wales need to play like they did in the last 10 mins, which is how they played in the 2011 WC .

Sean Edwards is good but he needs to be told that defence is only part of the game. Howley must go. Possibly Gatland too. The coaching team is just going though the motions

And we must start thinking about replacing Roberts good though he is he is far too predictable and therefore ineffective.

Time for change. We have been dreadful this season even though the results are acceptable, apart from Saturday.

lloyd

Citings for Francis and Keedie (Wales u20 dangerous tackle to be fair it should be a warning same as Haskells IMO a yellow and no more) warning for the Brand and fuck all for Marler....I think they've missed a trick here as its racial abuse which is protected by law. Expected something for the forearm to the face too but nothing this commission does or doesn't do should surprise me anymore.

fretmeister

Marler is still being investigated by the RFU. Not over yet.

exocet

I was at Twickenham on Saturday, very painful it was too. I was in the North Stand, so the action was always far away from me in both halves. The scoreline told me that we were thumped but having watched the game at home yesterday, I feel mildly positive.

We haven't played well for quite some time now, a limited game plan albeit well executed has managed to sustain some reasonable results or at least put pay to the thrashings that we have been given in the not so distant past.

In many ways, the England game was the same for us as the opening game v Ireland, we were so slow out of the blocks against an opposition who knew what they were doing and executed at pace. We've were equally poor against France and Scotland but got away with it because Scotland lacked confidence and France are just the most awful team on the planet right now.

What did surprise me was just how poor we were defensively, falling off tackles left right and centre and more often than not, failing to get our defensive lines in place. Here's where I'll get contentious and wind up our English friends, we did this even when we weren't being subjected to a pacey organised attack. In fact I'd say that England didn't do anything particularly special. It was late in first half / early in second half that really shocked me. In my view, England had eased off / lost their way a bit and we weren't under pressure, we won some reasonable ball but there was no attacking structure, Roberts was at 1st receiver a number of times but took the ball stationary. It wasn't blind panic, just no discernable game plan executed slowly.

I actually think that we were hard done by on one of the following penalties. The one where Charteris was pinged for failing to roll away. The Ref pinged very quickly and having seen the state of Charteris' dislocated finger at this point I'm not surprised that rolling away wasn't higher up his agenda.

So why am I mildly optimistic? For significant periods of the 2nd half (before the circus of subs) we demonstrated parity with English pack, even getting the upper hand occasionally. As a result I'm feeling more positive about the future of our front row.

We also started to show some decent attacking flair. Particularly at 58 mins where we had a try disallowed. Perhaps it's my rose tinted specs but it looked to me like Nowell knocked the ball backwards during follow up tackle on JD2?

To me, JD2 was starting to look his old self in the 2nd half and he made some decent ground quite aggressively at times.

Yes, we scored 2 tries once Eng down to 14 men but I've seen far worse from Wales I.e actually conceding tries when in this position.

The final attack did not generate the rewards but we were damn close and on another day would probably have scored. To me, North is finding his form again.

The big question is how to best use the limited resources that we have because we've reached a bit of a dead end? I'd say that Howley needs to go and that Edwards needs to accept that defence isn't everything. We haven't got the cash to pay Gatland off and there are no obvious replacements even if we could.

We also need a few more Liam Williams and less Cuthburt !

I'll finish by saying that England deserve to win this year's Championship and GS (France have already surrendered) BUT don't get too carried away just yet because Wales were very poor on Saturday. If you have a successful summer tour, that's when you know you've turned a corner. I'm hoping that we can cancel ours....we don't need that tour right now

p90fool

Well I know it's not technically over yet, but apart from Scotland finding a bit of flair from somewhere that was the most piss-poor Six Nations I can remember.

Most of the "good" rugby I've seen has been due to terrible opposition rather than quality or inventiveness. England will Grand Slam it and it's well deserved tbh, as the only three teams which could've stopped them haven't bothered to turn up.

It's not all good news for England either, they actually haven't progressed at all since the World Cup. Their  games against Wales were pretty much the same in both tournaments - the difference between winning or losing was just a matter of two or three minutes on the clock.
I know it's all about small margins but the script was identical and this time they just got away with it. That's not really progress, certainly not in the way the "Eddie Jones Effect" has been hyped. You know, the man who said before the game that they weren't going to fade away at the end this time?

Having watched almost every game in this tournament since around 1970 I was really looking forward to this one in particular. It's always interesting to see what we as a hemisphere have learned from a World Cup in the following tournament but the inevitable answer is absolutely fuck all, not even the Grand Slam winners.

The only perennial rugby question which has finally been answered once and for all is that at last we DO know "which France is going to turn up".

Yes, that one. 

fretmeister

I did notice as soon as Manu came on the backs flair disappeared. He's too one dimensional.

crunchman

@p90fool - I'd disagree about England making no progress.  They have blooded young players like Itoje and Daly.

This was also (on paper) a better Wales side than the one in the World Cup.  They had Francis and Gethin Jenkins starting that day at prop - and England still lost the battle at the scrum.  A quick glance at the team sheet reveals that they also were missing people like Jonathan Davies and Charteris.  They also had a youngster called Hallam Amos on the wing, who hasn't been able to crack the 6N line up.

England still need to improve at openside, and I'm not sure that Farrell is the best long term option at centre but there has been progress.

lloyd

fretmeister said:

Marler is still being investigated by the RFU. Not over yet.

Should be the citing commission rather than his own Union surely?

EDIT: Now cited for the forearm.

koneguitarist

I meant Williams as 15 instead of Halfpenny, with Halfpenny on wing.

lloyd

koneguitarist said:

I meant Williams as 15 instead of Halfpenny, with Halfpenny on wing.

Ah fair enough, I personally think that's how it will go from now. I'm not sure I see 1/2p regaining his spot. Williams has matured and up there with the best NH 15's now.

exocet

crunchman said:

@p90fool - I'd disagree about England making no progress.  They have blooded young players like Itoje and Daly.

This was also (on paper) a better Wales side than the one in the World Cup.  They had Francis and Gethin Jenkins starting that day at prop - and England still lost the battle at the scrum.  A quick glance at the team sheet reveals that they also were missing people like Jonathan Davies and Charteris.  They also had a youngster called Hallam Amos on the wing, who hasn't been able to crack the 6N line up.

England still need to improve at openside, and I'm not sure that Farrell is the best long term option at centre but there has been progress.

I'd agree that "on paper" it would appear to have been a stronger team. However, with Wales, its very rarely as simple as that. Gethin, whilst being a dodgy scrummager is still better around the park than his replacement - but there's no going back here, his international career is over. I think Id rather have had Amos than Cuthbert.

Charteris was on the bench as on Saturday....that was a mistake. Did anyone catch the finger dislocation incident? It's clearly visible on the TV coverage also in Sunday Times - who was offering his assistance? None other than John Terry himself....Mike Brown.....have to say that my opinion of his sportmanship went up for this....still a long way to go though.

What actually happened was that AWJ was really off the boil in this game - rare for him but true in this case. Also Sam Warburton was completely out of the game. He probably shouldn't have featured in this championship, he'd only played one competitive club game after injury back in November. The rest of the team had a nightmare first half - of course England played very well for the majority of the first half, but nothing earth shattering. 

England should move on from this point, Wales have some soul searching to do and decisions to make on playing style. 

lloyd

exocet said:

crunchman said:

@p90fool - I'd disagree about England making no progress.  They have blooded young players like Itoje and Daly.

This was also (on paper) a better Wales side than the one in the World Cup.  They had Francis and Gethin Jenkins starting that day at prop - and England still lost the battle at the scrum.  A quick glance at the team sheet reveals that they also were missing people like Jonathan Davies and Charteris.  They also had a youngster called Hallam Amos on the wing, who hasn't been able to crack the 6N line up.

England still need to improve at openside, and I'm not sure that Farrell is the best long term option at centre but there has been progress.

I'd agree that "on paper" it would appear to have been a stronger team. However, with Wales, its very rarely as simple as that. Gethin, whilst being a dodgy scrummager is still better around the park than his replacement - but there's no going back here, his international career is over. I think Id rather have had Amos than Cuthbert.

Charteris was on the bench as on Saturday....that was a mistake. Did anyone catch the finger dislocation incident? It's clearly visible on the TV coverage also in Sunday Times - who was offering his assistance? None other than John Terry himself....Mike Brown.....have to say that my opinion of his sportmanship went up for this....still a long way to go though.

What actually happened was that AWJ was really off the boil in this game - rare for him but true in this case. Also Sam Warburton was completely out of the game. He probably shouldn't have featured in this championship, he'd only played one competitive club game after injury back in November. The rest of the team had a nightmare first half - of course England played very well for the majority of the first half, but nothing earth shattering. 

England should move on from this point, Wales have some soul searching to do and decisions to make on playing style. 

Agree with most of this.

Hallam Amos has been out since the WC with a dislocated shoulder, he's only had 5(?)caps and only came back mid January, it would have been bold to put him back in the 6N squad. Cuthbert shouldn't have been anywhere near that squad though, Gatland insists on picking him though, he had his worst game in a long time for us Saturday (which is saying something). James is the next man on the rank and really, with any other coach, would have played all the games this championship.

I saw the finger incident, nicely done by Brown you have to say. 

scrumhalf

All of this optimism about English rugby is meaningless until such time as the summer tour and, more importantly, autumn internationals have been and gone. If we get an almighty gubbing from the SH nations the knives will be out.

lloyd

scrumhalf said:

All of this optimism about English rugby is meaningless until such time as the summer tour and, more importantly, autumn internationals have been and gone. If we get an almighty gubbing from the SH nations the knives will be out.

I wouldn't say it's meaningless, there's some good young players coming through, a coherent plan they are working towards and let's not forget have just won the 6N and almost certainly will be GS winners for the first time in 13 years.

There's plenty to be optimistic about.

digitalscream

scrumhalf said:

All of this optimism about English rugby is meaningless until such time as the summer tour and, more importantly, autumn internationals have been and gone. If we get an almighty gubbing from the SH nations the knives will be out.

It'd be a bit ridiculous for everybody to start sharpening their pitchforks - even if we do get hammered by the SH teams and treat the 6N as a fluke, it's a bit unfair to expect immediate results from a new coach. If the same happens next year, though...

exocet

scrumhalf said:

All of this optimism about English rugby is meaningless until such time as the summer tour and, more importantly, autumn internationals have been and gone. If we get an almighty gubbing from the SH nations the knives will be out.

Being Welsh.....I didn't want to say it, but its true. However, the media has other ideas.

For England there is the issue of Farrell / Ford. I'm questioning whether Ford has the mental strength to cope at International level. If Farrell hadn't been there, would all of those kicks have gone over? Ben Youngs had a pretty decent game (I'm not a fan of his) but it was a very ropey pass that put Ford in all kinds of trouble and he is noted for being as ponderous as old Mikey Phillips with his service.

Tuillagi....one word, "why"? If you want to play him then give him a chance and make sure he's had a few games under his belt rather than demonstrate what appears to be total blind faith in the man. 

Dan Cole - days must be numbered? How do you transition in the replacements (of which you have many) without disrupting the current performances / results? Nice problem to have by the way.

That said, England have a quality player base, massive finances and a decent league standard so coordinating it shouldn't be too difficult

crunchman

On the Farrell/Ford issue, I wonder if Slade might be the better long term option.  Exeter were playing him at 10 before he got injured.

hywelg

lloyd;1003421" said:

There's plenty to be optimistic about.

Not really, they really haven't been challenged this 6N. Wales handed them a 19 point lead on a plate and they were found seriously wanting for the last 10 minutes. So much for Eddie's 30% fitter......

Their much lauded front row came off second best, their number 8 was rendered ineffective. Wales gifted them a few lineout turnovers. And we stayed in bed when they had the ball in the backs.

What they do have to optimistic about is Otoje and their running in open play. Don't underestimate how badly off they'll come against SH teams if they play like that. They will turn England over in the last 20.

Wales would have been 40 points down against SH teams playing like we did.

kjdowd

There are good reasons for English optimism under Jones. He has obviously given them a crash course on modern breakdown work, and we are finally getting past the ball and clearing out properly on our ball rather than targeting the ball first up. He has also given a clear message that if you front up and play well, you will be picked. That trust had gone a bit under Lancaster who talked a lot about credit in the bank (not to mention the whole burgess debacle). I think the players have really responded to this - retaining Robshaw was a clever move. There are still worries, not least with the defensive system which seems to go to pieces with a player in the bin (not unusual, I know, but the degradation in both instances was alarming).