I think we're going to regret electing the Tories again

frankus

boogieman said:

I was being sarcastic.

you fell foul of the Sarchasm

Evilmags

Once we get past all the pathetic virtue signalling could we please analyse some facts.

1) Public pensions are increasingly unaffordable. People live longer and people have less children. As this trend gets worse pensioners numbers increase relative to the number of people in work.

2) Making this situation worse is Gordon Brow's tax raid, which makes private pension plans less valuable.

3) Their is no compassion in spending other people's money. Taking people's money from them is called theft unless the government does it. It's only illegal because they want to maintain their monopoly on the practise.

4) anyone under 30 who thinks they are going to get a state pension they can live on is dumber than shit on a stick. Just look at the age demographic. It's 20 million more imigrants or no pensions.

Basic accountancy versus self righteous posing.

GuyBoden

The Uk's system of electing a government every 5 years, doesn't give the Gov enough time for long term strategy/policy, so we're locked into short term-ism Gov.

We only need to look at Stalinist USSR, Maoist China, DPRK North Korea and the especially Khmer Red Cambodia for examples of how a Gov can implement effective long term policies.

Drew_TNBD

Alright Ben Franklin... wind yer neck in!

boogieman

GuyBoden;805225" said:

We only need to look at........Khmer Red Cambodia for examples of how a Gov can implement effective long term policies.

Like killing off 25% of the population? One way of reducing pension costs I suppose.

frankus

Evilmags;805223" said:

Once we get past all the pathetic virtue signalling could we please analyse some facts.

Mags found the "virtue signalling" meme on Facebook, now he has a phrase to use against anyone that doesn't fit into his Randian world-view   

Well done Zuckerberg

FX_Munkee

boogieman said:

GuyBoden;805225" said:

We only need to look at........Khmer Red Cambodia for examples of how a Gov can implement effective long term policies.

Like killing off 25% of the population? One way of reducing pension costs I suppose.

Yep, that seems to be what they're suggesting.

GuyBoden

FX_Munkee said:

boogieman said:

GuyBoden;805225" said:

We only need to look at........Khmer Red Cambodia for examples of how a Gov can implement effective long term policies.

Like killing off 25% of the population? One way of reducing pension costs I suppose.

Yep, that seems to be what they're suggesting.

CabbageCat

Evilmags said:

4) anyone under 30 who thinks they are going to get a state pension they can live on is dumber than sht on a stick.

I don't think that's fair. I doubt that the UK would allow its oldsters to just rot but I agree that things have to change. Too many people live their lives banking on a state safety net - and I don't blame them for it. But, in my opinion, people should be encouraged (carrot or stick) to save more and take responsibility for their own retirement. The inevitable footage of chilly old ladies eating next door's scraps will doubtless throw the entirety of the blame at the feet of the cruel state, but that old lady has had fifty years to save enough cash for a tin of beans - perhaps she should shoulder her share of the responsibility for failing to do so.

Fretwired

boogieman said:

GuyBoden;805225" said:

We only need to look at........Khmer Red Cambodia for examples of how a Gov can implement effective long term policies.

Like killing off 25% of the population? One way of reducing pension costs I suppose.

Excellent idea .. I've just Tweeted it to Tory central and IDS is as pleased as punch. They plan to start in the Labour constituencies and burn the bodies to supply power to wealth generating London and the South East. Remove the useless ageing populations, cut government spending on pensions and help the trade balance by not having to import gas for the power stations.

Progressive solutions to first world problems - VOTE TORY.


Or alternatively stopping bashing the City. London's financial centre needs reform but has the capacity to run 24/7 and be the banker to the world (by virtue of its location) and can generate billions more in tax for the government's coffers. The UK needs to improve productivity and generate wealth to ensure we don't end up bankrupt.

In 2014 London generated £126 billion in tax revenues - far more than the whole of the north of England. This is why Osborne wants to invest heavily in the north to generate wealth and prosperity.

crunchman

They are forcing employers to offer pension schemes now - but then that's probably one of the reasons behind the rise of zero hours contracts.

The other problem is that you can't really force people to sign up for them.  I work for LU where we a brilliant pension but even here some people don't sign up for it.  There was one bloke who opted out of the pension and spent all his money whose attitude was that the government would look after him.  In his case it ended up a moot point anyway because he spent it all on drink and his liver gave up on him.

If they want people to provide for themselves they probably need to be a bit more sympathetic with tax thresholds and means tested benefits for pensioners.  At the moment, it's not worth getting a pension unless it's going to be worth £20k a year or more because you just lose out on other benefits.  For someone in a low paid job they are better off spending it now.  There needs to be some kind of assurance that you won't lose out if you end up with a pension worth £8k a year.

frankus

What I really appreciate is people like Mags shaming and condemning other people's life choices - I wasn't born assured of a private education and a trust fund, perhaps if I had been I'd be exasperated at other people's "poor life choices" also.

I'm not saying poor me, I can walk and breath unassisted, I have a pretty good brain - so I am pretty pleased with my lot, so much so I'm not about to accuse disabled people of being lazy (big of me I know ;^)

 

Fretwired

crunchman said:

They are forcing employers to offer pension schemes now - but then that's probably one of the reasons behind the rise of zero hours contracts.

The other problem is that you can't really force people to sign up for them.  I work for LU where we a brilliant pension but even here some people don't sign up for it.  There was one bloke who opted out of the pension and spent all his money whose attitude was that the government would look after him.  In his case it ended up a moot point anyway because he spent it all on drink and his liver gave up on him.

If they want people to provide for themselves they probably need to be a bit more sympathetic with tax thresholds and means tested benefits for pensioners.  At the moment, it's not worth getting a pension unless it's going to be worth £20k a year or more because you just lose out on other benefits.  For someone in a low paid job they are better off spending it now.  There needs to be some kind of assurance that you won't lose out if you end up with a pension worth £8k a year.

Zero hours contracts aren't on the rise and in many cases the people on them want the flexibility. My son's girlfriend had a zero hours contract by choice whilst she was studying -  a full-time job would have been too much for her at the time.

The UK is about to hit crunch time - there will be more jobs than people to fill them so we will need more immigrants.

Means testing pensioners benefits would cost too much. The solution is simple. The government knows how much pensioners earn through the tax system. If, as a pensioner, you're annual income exceeds £60K you get no state pension. This could also include assets like owning a house.

You scrap fuel allowance and they pay the state pension according to need. The state pension should become a safety net. One of my clients (ex-government employee) has retired with a £1 million pension plot (her husband has a similar pot) and they own two hours worth £6 million. They will both get state pensions and the winter fuel allowance which is nuts.

Myranda

So... "we" will regret electing the Tories because not-the-Tories have said axe pensions while Cameron has said they definitely wont axe pensions...

Which part am we regretting exactly?

That a think-tank tasked with decided if pensions should be axed say they should be axed even though they're in in government, or have any authority

Or

That the Tories wont do it because they have stated time and time again that it's not going to happen?

What specifically should I be enraged about today?

Evilmags

Savings are what drive productivity. (Productivity comes from capital goods, not work) Dependence on state pensions is one of the main reasons Europe lags the US in innovation and productivity, as retirement savings get invested in the real economy rather than eaten by the state.

Evilmags

And remember the state pension is NOT a contract. My in laws have had their cut in the crisis. The UK is not yet in as big a financial hole as Sotherton Europe but it was pensions that broke Greece. If the cash isn't their the government can't pay pensions.

PolarityMan

Fretwired said:

 The UK needs to improve productivity and generate wealth to ensure we don't end up bankrupt.

Imo this is the crux of the issue. We have a system of perverse reverse incentives to punish wealth generation and if it remains in place we'll be over taken by India and China within the next couple of decades.

At that point is game over and everyone gets dragged to the bottom.People whinging about the poverty gap might want to re-evaluate what they think would happen once our GDP per capita starts dropping down the rankings.

Evilmags

frankus;805239" said:

Evilmags;805223" said:Once we get past all the pathetic virtue signalling could we please analyse some facts.

Mags found the "virtue signalling" meme on Facebook, now he has a phrase to use against anyone that doesn't fit into his Randian world-view   

Well done Zuckerberg

It was @drew_fx who first uttered the phrase within my virtual presence.

Fretwired

Evilmags said:

Savings are what drive productivity. (Productivity comes from capital goods, not work) Dependence on state pensions is one of the main reasons Europe lags the US in innovation and productivity, as retirement savings get invested in the real economy rather than eaten by the state.

Technology, improving workers skills, working practices and tax incentives can drive productivity. Forcing students to pay £60K to get an education is stupid. A good degree will get you a well paid job and if the UK's productivity rises so will tax receipts.

Technology will put many in the service sector out of jobs within the next 10 years so we need to create new industries with skilled jobs.

chillidoggy

Myranda said:

So... "we" will regret electing the Tories because not-the-Tories have said axe pensions while Cameron has said they definitely wont axe pensions...

Which part am we regretting exactly?

That a think-tank tasked with decided if pensions should be axed say they should be axed even though they're in in government, or have any authority

Or

That the Tories wont do it because they have stated time and time again that it's not going to happen?

What specifically should I be enraged about today?

For God's sake, haven't you realised that you are expected to jump on the FB Tory-basher's bandwagon yet?

Yes, I know it's boring listening to the same old worn-out standard tune, but if you could just start demonstrating a little more outrage, I'm sure things will settle down soon.

If not they'll be round with their pitchforks.