Drummers. Why are most crap?

Teetonetal

So, last night I got to see Micheal Jerome up close... also chatted to him pre gig which was cool.

Having seen him play, I realize that I have only really played with 1, maybe 2 good drummers. What struck me was how solid he was, and how inventive he was.

most drummers I've played with either change what they do from week to week, they may keep the basic beat the same, but the fills vary enormously, or they move the bass drum around... also most drummers don't seem to interact with the music, they just play a beat.

what I noticed with MJ was that his beats changed a lot to fit with either the bass or guitar riffs being played.. meaning that a section was constructed of up to 4 patterns that interchanged and supported the rhythmic structure, then fills were more like accents. I don't think what he was playing was particularly difficult, but it was constantly moving, yet each time repeated exactly..

I have been in 1 band where the drummer did this kind of thing and it was easily the best band I've been in as every week he played exactly the same... Definitely treating the drums as an instrument rather than a drum machine...

anyway,  it was eye opening, just how many drummers I've played with who ruin the music by not being consistent.. or by being dull.. (lets not even talk about the ones who speed up / slow down)

ICBM

Because unlike a guitar or a bass, a drum kit is a massive commitment to carry and find somewhere to put it at home, let alone practice with… so very few do.

That means that drummers are rare, but because you need the same number of drummers as bassists and roughly half the number of guitarists, all of them get into bands whether they're any good or not.

bluechargeboy

A significant proportion of gigging musicians cannot play their instruments very well, not just drummers. Timing is the usual problem, and I suppose that is much more obvious with drummers...

EricTheWeary

Lots of issues with me as a guitarist so people in glass houses ...but two things that I've noticed 1) learning the beat and not learning the song, so they don't get the stops in the right places and 2) struggling with anything other than straight beats, finding a drummer with a feel for a shuffle or swing is a mare ( and how many pub blues bands have a wannabe Lars Ulrich behind the kit murdering a classic blues). 

guitarfishbay

IMO as ICBM suggested most aren't practising enough on real kits for practical reasons.

I also get frustrated at the 'change it every time' types because if you're trying to do recording it means you can't comp at certain spots if say left crash rings out on one take but right crash on the other. You can remind them after they do it every time, but it apparently isn't something memorable enough to stick in their heads...

At the end of the day, drummers with their own kits and transportation are in demand, to the point where in some scenarios you can't be as picky as you could with guitarists just down to numbers.

Teetonetal

All good points.. but surely the rise of the electric kit means that the "I can't practice thing" becomes more of an excuse than before? In the UK, you are lucky in that lots of people have houses with spare rooms etc.. guitarists tend to take them over, so why not drummers?

So many drummers have needlessly huge kits, lots of Toms and Cymbals and again I don't get it, they then moan and complain about setup time and transport. Micheal Jerome had 2 toms, ride, crash and high hat. He used, brushes, sticks mallets, hands and towels on the drum heads to get different sounds.

Let's face it a guitarist with pedal board, 4x12, head and two guitars, is also not exactly travelling light..

 

ICBM

I'd far rather have a drummer who can play in time but doesn't play quite the same thing twice, than the other way round - assuming they get the basic song structure right, at least. In fact that's somewhat like the way I play guitar and bass, so I couldn't criticise too much!

To me, live music is as much about continuous improvisation as it is about rigid part learning. If the drummer can do it well and keep time you'll sound good to the audience - if they can't play in time you won't no matter how well they've learned the parts. Recording is a different discipline, depending on how you do it.

octatonic

We must move in different circles.

Most of the drummers I know are great musicians, can read music, are diligent about practice and always working.

The problem is with drums there is nowhere to hide.

Also- it is hard to do.

Drums is my hobby instrument- I'm not very good but I love playing, probably more than guitar these days.

Teetonetal

ICBM said:

I'd far rather have a drummer who can play in time but doesn't play quite the same thing twice, than the other way round - assuming they get the basic song structure right, at least. In fact that's somewhat like the way I play guitar and bass, so I couldn't criticise too much!

To me, live music is as much about continuous improvisation as it is about rigid part learning. If the drummer can do it well and keep time you'll sound good to the audience - if they can't play in time you won't no matter how well they've learned the parts. Recording is a different discipline, depending on how you do it.

Yes, I would tend to agree with that. 

The best improvisation though is built on solid structure.. to get 3+ musicians to improvise at the same time and still sound cohesive requires lots of practice and a pretty high level of talent. Otherwise all an audience gets is messy, boring improvisation that each individual musician enjoys, but as a whole sounds sloppy. A band has to work out queues and areas of cohesion to allow the imporv the best chance of working. At the gig last night, this was clear to me that the band had done this. there were set moves that brought the solos back to home or divided improv sections up and it sounded amazing. Loads of eye contact too..

The wandering bass drum must drive bass players nuts. Without the bass drum being locked, it's almost impossible for the bass / drummer relationship to provide a solid platform - if the bass player basis his groove on the bass drum, then that changes, the groove is gone. It's now a push pull affair and more down to luck than judgement if the thing provides a solid foundation or not.

@Octatonic, maybe - I am basing this opinion purely on my experience in bands. out of 15 drummers I can only recall two who I would rate as class. I have worked with drummers who can read music etc, but that has been no indication on the quality of their playing. Without doubt the 2 drummers I thought were great were also part of the two bands I thought were the best I have played in. To me they are the most important part of turning a good band into a great one.. as they give you the foundation to build from.

I also play drums and I have found it an easy instrument to learn, easier than guitar at any rate. Yes, you can get complex but as with any instrument that is not a requirement.

Danny1969

I've been lucky I spose. In my main band we had had 6 drummers over 10 years and the standard has been high all the way with 4 out of the six being session drummers and teachers, who have gone to work with bigger and better stuff like bands on the radio and X factor

The first decent drummer I worked with couldn't afford a drum kit when he started so he cut out some round pads with a jigsaw and mounted them on a wooden frame and covered then with rubber..... that was the he learned on. When we started gigging he brought a used Pearl Export kit and hit is so well you would have thought it cost more than it did

I do see loads of crap drummers playing the wrong beat to covers in pubs but then I see crap guitarist in pubs playing covers wrong as well I spose.

EricTheWeary

octatonic;807691" said:

We must move in different circles.Most of the drummers I know are great musicians, can read music, are diligent about practice and always working.The problem is with drums there is nowhere to hide.Also- it is hard to do.

Drums is my hobby instrument- I'm not very good but I love playing, probably more than guitar these days.

I'm fairly sure we move in different circles. I guess if you meet pro musicians that's what you get, at an amateur / semi-pro level finding a decent drummer is hard and you end up making do with the wannabe Neil Peart in your Chicago blues band.
I think Michael Jerome is an interesting case in point as he is clearly technically accomplished yet will play very simple things indeed if that's what is required - more and more I feel knowing when not to play is the sign of a pro rather than trying to showcase your chops on every song. And he does backing vocals!

stickyfiddle

I've been lucky enough to play with a handful of great drummers as well as several average ones. 

It's *awesome* when you get a good responsive drummer who plays with and for the band, rather than just following pre-learned patterns from a recording he's listened to. 

But I don't think the ratio is much different to guitarists, just that an average guitarist can stand at the back playing chords and it's not noticeable if you're not paying attention. Get your snare and cymbals sounding messy and everyone in the room can tell.

Teetonetal

EricTheWeary said:

octatonic;807691" said:

We must move in different circles.Most of the drummers I know are great musicians, can read music, are diligent about practice and always working.The problem is with drums there is nowhere to hide.Also- it is hard to do.

Drums is my hobby instrument- I'm not very good but I love playing, probably more than guitar these days.

I'm fairly sure we move in different circles. I guess if you meet pro musicians that's what you get, at an amateur / semi-pro level finding a decent drummer is hard and you end up making do with the wannabe Neil Peart in your Chicago blues band.
I think Michael Jerome is an interesting case in point as he is clearly technically accomplished yet will play very simple things indeed if that's what is required - more and more I feel knowing when not to play is the sign of a pro rather than trying to showcase your chops on every song. And he does backing vocals!

Yes, that is a definite sign of a pro..

Pro bass players for example chug on one note if that's what the track demands, armatures waltz all over the neck at any available opportunity.

Guitarists are just as bad,, needing to strum everything, all the time, when sometimes a nice powerful single hit that rings out is all that's required.

But hey, that's true of life, most people simply don't know when to shut up. Too much me, me, me is bad in every situation.

It's all about when to keep it simple, when to leave space and when to rock out like a mofo.

HollowAxis

I think, like others have said, it is much much easier to notice when a drummer isn't doing his job.
Even drummers who look wild and loose are still 'tight' they can play what they mean to play and keep the beat and groove.

You cannot fix bad timing.
I've never ever met a bad drummer who could be fixed, it's innate I think.
The band I was in most recently I broke up because the drummer had no timing.
He had a version of timing and maybe most people wouldn't notice the offness but there is a step up to sounding pro.
We tried, so hard, I made concessions with the song writing but at the end of the day he couldn't hear when he was off or on.

I think it's a lot less noticeable with other instruments.

If the drums are a big part of the song and they are off the song is fucked.

Also like others have said all the bad drummers I've met want to play everything, all the time.

The best musicians can take a backseat and play for the song.
If your drummer can't do that it becomes obviously.

HollowAxis

I don't know so much if it is about practice. It takes ages to be excellent, but you still need timing.
Drums are a secondary instrument for me, I've played on records and although I can't physically do all the fancy stuff in my head
I don't lose time. I can play to a click.
Simple beats, but effective.
If I practiced I might get way better but my timing is the crux.

Bad drummers just don't have that. No matter how much they practice.

GuyBoden

If you're comparing a good pro drummer to a hobby/amateur/pub gig drummer that is extremely unfair.

sweepy

I always got the impression, that drummers and indeed bassists have a similar position. There is little competition amongst themselves, a town is always full of guitarists, but you notice, relatively few good drummers and bassists, those that are, are always gigging, because they are so rare

Teetonetal

GuyBoden said:

If you're comparing a good pro drummer to a hobby/amateur/pub gig drummer that is extremely unfair.

Really, why? as an armature player I aspire to be as good as possible. Doesn't that hold for drummers?

My point is that lots of drummers lack a very basic, yet integral skill that wouild make them instantly sound better.

Any drummer needs three things in my book:

1. Good Timing
2. An ability to play for the song
3. the ability to remember what they played last week.

In my experience hobby / armature / semi pro drummers miss at least 2 of the 3 things out.

guitarfishbay

It is a money thing for sure as well as a circles thing.

When it comes to doing originals, starting a band is difficult because anyone who is skilled enough to get well paid work could just do that instead of investing their time into something that might amount to nothing.  So finding people who want to play at high level and invest a huge amount of time in to getting something off the ground can take a while, especially when looking for a drummer who has their own transport.  Let's face it, a drummer without a car is a major pain unless one of you has a car/van with enough room for your gear and theirs (and willing to include picking them up/dropping them off every time).

If you've got an income generating band then you're more likely to attract a better class of musician which means you can be more picky.

Danny1969

guitarfishbay said:

It is a money thing for sure as well as a circles thing.

When it comes to doing originals, starting a band is difficult because anyone who is skilled enough to get well paid work could just do that instead of investing their time into something that might amount to nothing.  So finding people who want to play at high level and invest a huge amount of time in to getting something off the ground can take a while, especially when looking for a drummer who has their own transport.  Let's face it, a drummer without a car is a major pain unless one of you has a car/van with enough room for your gear and theirs (and willing to include picking them up/dropping them off every time).

If you've got an income generating band then you're more likely to attract a better class of musician which means you can be more picky.

That's very true and when we held auditions 6 very talented guys turned up and I would have been happy with any of them to be honest...... the money is a huge pull 

If you ever really want to see how good your drummer is record him with 2 overheads and see if you can mix it into a song. Out of all the instruments I've recorded this is the one instrument where the quality of my work depended largely on how good the client was. 

ESBlonde

Many pub band drummers and like their guitar playing counterparts and only know/play one style of rock. Take them out of that comfort zone and they are lost. The huge kits tend to be more about their aspirations than their abilities. Most of the cracking drummers I know have simple/smaller kits because A) Thats all they need to make good music. They are in demand and gig so often that they soon learn how much gear is needed and practical. If you are setting up and packing away a big kit 3 or more times a week it just makes sense to downsize. C) Good drummers (as well as other musicians) will be versatile in a number of styles although they often have a pet/favourite style band running alongside the good paying gigs.