Non-Guitar Centric Music

Snap

cheers Clarky, I can feel a symphonic plugin coming.

Right, this is the finished version of Rise, something I've been working on for ages, the earlier version of which is above. Used Vocalise a fair bit on this too. Also mastered it with a different way, which I think has given it some more bite, though when it comes to mastering I am at the bottom of a very steep learning curve. Cheers all for listening and any feedback. J

Clarky

production and ideas wise it's sounding great..

be careful with the notes though..

there's a high brass line: F, E, A which is repeated a semi-tone lower

I know the bass note drops from D to C#, but it don't sound like the whole section is changing key by dropping a semi-tone..

that 2nd phrase sounds at odds with the prevailing harmony

what is that 2nd chord?

there are so many layers it's not easy to determine [not sat at a piano right now]

Snap

cheers buddy,

Second chord? I'd have to check, most of it was played on the fly, lol. Well, tbh, all of it was. None of the notes have been edited post original take. I did intend it all to flow, in sync, key and timing wise, so if something's out, it wouldn't really surprise me.

I was aiming to get a counter harmony, in the second section, with the brass, something a little reminiscent of the arrangements you get in some of the 60s.

also, I was that focused on the mix, trying to avoid clutter etc, that I haven't paid any attention at all to the notes!

good feedback though, so cheers muchly

Clarky

Snap said:

cheers buddy,

Second chord? I'd have to check, most of it was played on the fly, lol. Well, tbh, all of it was. None of the notes have been edited post original take. I did intend it all to flow, in sync, key and timing wise, so if something's out, it wouldn't really surprise me.

I was aiming to get a counter harmony, in the second section, with the brass, something a little reminiscent of the arrangements you get in some of the 60s.

also, I was that focused on the mix, trying to avoid clutter etc, that I haven't paid any attention at all to the notes!

good feedback though, so cheers muchly

are you hearing the disconnection in the brass?

lil' trap when you're creating a piece that is fundamentally a developing loop

each time the loop repeats another layer is added.. some of these layers can obscure some parts of the layers below..

you can end up stacking dissonances on top of each other even if you stick strictly to the key

that said, it's not always a bad thing..

in some atmospheric pieces this can actually be a very cool effect as the dissonances collide and unravel, then resolve..

what works and what don't is really down to your ear and the tonal effects you are aiming for..

interestingly, I encountered this on a piece I'm working on right now..

it's a rock ballad that's based upon Nimrod by Elgar

the piece is for a rock band with vocals and a full symphony orchestra

when the chorus shows up, the obvious rock'n'roll thing to do is to stack the BV's in thirds..

but I knew immediately that this would be an epic fail because the BV's would clash violently with the surrounding harmony [from the strings in particular].. it'd just wreck the piece..

the only viable solution was to have the BV's follow the tonality of the chord progression..

this meant that I had to score out independent lines for each of the BV parts..

having programmed them on a piano to play along with the song I've verified that they work pretty well..

now I've just got to learn them, then sing and record them…. ouch ! !.. lmao

with pieces that are harmonically rich and / or densely orchestrated, on occasion putting pen to paper really does make sense..

Snap

thanks mate, that's all so useful.

As for putting pen to paper, well if it woked for Bach, I'm sure it will work for me in my box room surrounded by crap!
Mind you, Back was all about maths, and I can't be arsed with that, I have enough maths in the day job.

Dissonances - you know, that makes sense, when you talk about layers. Musically, I was classically trained upto a reasonably high standard (piano) as a kid, so when it comes to the notes-  I'm usually know what I intended, but the effect of layers of dissonance wasn;'t something I'd thought about.

One thing I need to learn to appreciate is the benefit of simplicity. the track I did called Asheklon only has 10 tracks in it, and twoe of those are a couple of FX loops. I'm happier with that track, though it could maybe do with another minute or so.

Clarky

having re-read my previous comment, a little point to note is that I'm not saying don't have dissonances, I'm just saying to be mindful of the effects of adding layer after layer after layer cos it can get a little out of control..

interestingly, despite my classical training and accumulated knowhow, in my fist attempts at trailers with full orchestral arrangements I walked right into this trap like a noob.. and found myself scratching my head "why does this sound so messy?".. lol..

so… I went back to square one and took a deep look at some huge sounding orchestral pieces.. Wanger, Verdi etc

and guess what… I still found that there were only fundamentally 4 main lines.. bass, tenor, alto and soprano..

the size comes from various orchestral sections blending layers.. and if you're having some layers in different octaves to get more 'size' you still have to be pretty careful..

it was a bit of a 'no shit Sherlock' moment.. lol..

as soon as I went back to that 4 part harmony approach, mixing became so much easier..

the really difficult thing with trailers is managing the huge combination of instruments

metal band, synths, orchestral and choir

it's so easy to write your way into a mess..

I know cos I've done it several times..

Snap

Wiz Clarky.

I totally got what you were saying on dissonance BTW. Agree, it can be good, but caution necessary. YOu know sometimes, I can't even hear it. LIke in the track, until you pointed it out, I missed it, and tbh, had to concentrate to hear it at first. Now i hear nothing esle, so cheers for that!!

I seem to write myself into a mess all the time! I think its not understanding what makes something sound big. That is something I am still learning. Big isn't always layers, i guess its also eq, volume, reverb, placement and dynamics.

I'm working right now on some industrial/electro stuff (think NIN around The Fragile), and I am having to rein the pads in. Thick crisp bass and taut guitar bit crushed, and good drums instead.

Theres probably a good reason why a lot of early rock music sounded so good - focus!

cheers buddy - good discussion, informative

Clarky

haa… no probs… the human ear is an amazing thing… once it acclimatises to something it can make things sound ok.

that can be anything from clashing notes, poor performances and bad mixes

no matter if yore writing or mixing, ths is why it's important to take breaks and recalibrate your hearing..

the perfect hearing recalibration device is commonly known as a kettle..

I see a lot of guys record using looping methods.. just add and add and add each time the chord progression / riff cycle completes..

you hear dance music do this sort of thing a lot

sure this is one way to make a piece.. but it's not the only way..

you can approach it like writing a song / classical piece.. ya'know.. where you actually write all the parts and have distinct melodies, themes etc..

trailer style does a little of both..

they write like a song or classical piece, but can develop like a loop by introducing layers

I guess that's what makes them so difficult.. it's easy to get overly drawn into a specific direction..

my prob is that I end up heading towards symphonies.. which is a prob when you only have a 3 minute time limit.. lmao..

yes… totally.. big is often about production, tone choices.. but most importantly, keeping everything uncluttered..

think about all the hugest sounding metal and dance music.. there are generally only 4 things going on at any one instant

something low, something low-mid, something mid and something high

the top dance producers are masters of this

Snap

Band for you, and if you don't like them, you need your ears syringing:

A Winged Victory For The Sullen.

Try their first album, of the same name, for starters. SImply stunningly beautfiul modern classical music. Very simple and elegant.

On the track RIse, I jus sat down and played some strings for 4 minutes.

Clarky

Snap said:

A Winged Victory For The Sullen.

listening to it right now… absolutely lovely stuff….

in places it has shades of late 19thC / early 20thC.. but with a modern twist..

in other places it sounds like Vangelis when he scores for orchestra..

I love some of the production with the ambient effects.. very subtle and un-orchestral..

but they work so well with the mood..

I love the use of harmony.. so of the dissonances grind just enough [never too much] and then resolve beautifully..

Hans Zimmer [and his vast posse of clever composition and orchestration folks] are very good at this too

very skilfully worked out for sure

I'm feeling all zen now… lol..

Snap

I really like AWVFTS, they did a set for the BBC Proms, not seen it all, but the clip I saw was stunning.

Big fan of Hans Zimmer, my favourite of his is the OST to Inception.

Nils Frahm and Olafur Arnulds too. The latter's OST to the TV show Broadchurch is v good.

A fella worth checking out is Loscil. All sort of ambient soundscape type stuff, but very very good. Melodic and atmospheric. A good place to start is his EP Strathcona Variations. All his albums are v good, but his two most recent are my pick, I think.

All the ones I've mentioned have been linked by the Erased Tapes label. They do periodic sampler albums, I've found some cracking artists through them.

Clarky

if you like that sort of music, check out some of the material from Really Slow Motion and Immediate Music

some of their epic and ascendent style pieces are amazing

Snap

nice one, listening to Really Slow Motion now, big stuff. Immediate Music will be next,

Clarky

how's about these…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDBIucsLEaA

an old fave of mine [listen to it proper loud cos the some of the drops are stunning]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja-cxkbug8w

StephenB

Here's one I made a few months ago, chill electronic music with a funky B section

Clarky

haaa… a piece that makes you smile… very cool..

the cheeky / quirky quality reminds me a little of later era Kraftwerk

Snap

@StephenB, like it, some cool wah'd stuff going on in there. Would like to hear more stuff from you


@Clarky - listen to anything by Stars of the Lid.

Clarky

Snap said:

@Clarky - listen to anything by Stars of the Lid.

never heard of them… checking them out right now..

sounds like space movie music… love it..

I need one for them floatation tank things and then a few hours to mellow out..

I may get some of this for the car..

Clarky

@Snap are you like the more atmospheric stuff…

you may quite like this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ6ZOys1jl4

Snap

one of the fellas in Stars of the Lid is half of A Winged Victory For the Sullen. Again, on the sme label originally, Kranky.

Lovely music, great to work to. Only thing is , that in the car you lose some of the music through noise. The Melancholy Sounds album is good. They have recently got back together, talkin about new music and touring.

Ill check out your link too, cheers, later on, on train at moment.

J