Roland's 2016 Build Challenge

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For me the design phase of a project is as interesting as the build phase. So I wanted to start this thread early to blog the thinking process.

The brief is a slide instrument, with a spend of less than £100.  My personal additions to that brief are:
1. It's got to be giggable.
2. I want to prototype some ideas I've got for a headless guitar.
3. I want to try my hand at making a neck. 

Now I don't play much with a slide, so I'm going to build something fairly conventional that can be used in my normal playing.  To keep costs down means that I'll need to use components that have been collecting in my spares box, like some scratchy pots from the 1960s. I've got my eye on a piece of 4x2 firewood from someone's conservatory that looks like Sapele. I'll also be making many of the parts myself. How else could I get headless tuners and stay under £100?
Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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Comments

  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    If you struggle with the tuner issue you can always use normal tuners behind a normal bridge... Although I like the idea of making your own, makes it a real challenge
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    edited January 2016
    Having looked at a few designs for in-line machine heads this looks do-able, and cheaply. Basically each string needs a long machine screw which is threaded through a metal slug. The ball end of the string sits in a hole in the slug. If the slugs are square, and sit on a baseplate then they won't rotate with the screw. The baseplate could be L section, but U section would be more rigid because the screws could pass through both sides of the U. The slug would need to travel less than 2cm to bring a string to pitch.

    I think that a working prototype could be assembled quite cheaply, and operated with an Allen key. That will tell me how much torque is needed to tighten the string. Bringing it to finished product would mean adding a knurled screw head, or nut, which could be rotated by hand. 

    Here's a quick sketch:
    image

    The frame can come from an old Maplin project box, the sort of thing that's used for foot switches. All I need to buy is some square section aluminium for the slugs.  There's a lead time on that, and I've got a couple of non-guitar projects going on, so it will be a while before I have a prototype..
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Next consideration is body shape. It would be easy to build a lap steel, except I don't gig sitting down. Standing up the narrow body shape doesn't agree with my playing style. On the occasions I've tried a Steinberger cricket bat I've found that it moves around to much because I can't pin the body under my right arm. Maybe it needs a sharks fin shape like the Klein guitar?
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    I guess that most people won't be interested in these deliberations. For me they are an essential part of the process if I am not simply copying an existing design. 

    Over the weekend I've been thinking about bridges. Other build threads have said that a simple straight bridge will suffice for slide. This one has to have adjustable intonation because I want to be able to use the guitar for normal playing as well as slide. To keep within budget it has to be either home made from whatever's lying around the workshop, or a cheap version of a tunematic or Fender hard tail bridge. I've got enough on my hands making neck and tuners so I'm going for a standard bridge. Tunematic would be easy to string up, but means that I'd have to inset the tuners to get a good break angle. A top loading Fender modern bridge might be harder to string up, but would simplify the body shaping, so I'm going with that. I did think about using a Telecaster bridge plate which would also hold the pickup. On this build I'm trying to keep the weight down, so I'll stick to a Strat type hard tail. My instinct is to buy some cheap saddles, and bend the bridge plate myself. Then I discovered that I can buy a complete bridge from China for less than the cost of a set of saddles. Quality may (or may not) be there but, hey, this is a prototype.

    The aluminium bar has turned up so I'll start on the tuner slugs this week.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 3044
    edited January 2016
    Interesting reading the design considerations being discussed, it adds another dimension to your build, I'm enjoying it as I'm a bit rip, shit or bust and tend to make it up as I go along.....looking forward to seing it all develop...
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • Andyjr1515Andyjr1515 Frets: 3127
    It's the design thinking process that fascinates me, @Roland. Reading with interest :)
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Design change alert. Whilst walking the neighbour's dog I changed my mind. Originally I was going to attach the ball end of the string at the bridge, and use a grub screw at the headless end of the neck. Now it's the other way around. 

    First, it will make stringing up easier because it should be simpler to feed the string backwards through the saddle and bridge plate. Second, it's mechanically easier to locate the grub screws in the bridge slug than at the head end. Third, there will be even less weight at the end of the neck. (and no, I don't want double ball strings. I like my commodities to be cheap and easy to find). Lastly cost. It means I don't have to buy and machine a block of aluminium for the head end. Instead I can use a few inches of L section left over from the greenhouse. Recycling M3 and M4 grub screws from electrical connectors is free too.

    It does mean however that the tuning screws will only be secured at one end rather than both. Bang goes my bridge box. It's now L shaped, in fact I could even use a second hardtail bridge plate.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 3044
    Interesting how dog walking lets the mind wander and problem solve, do it myself. Look forward to the build as Im struggling to visualtise.......great stuff!
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Here's the first prototype tuner, with copper wire representing the guitar string, and a couple of hex nuts where a knurled sleeve will go. There's 1/2" of lateral adjustment for the slug, which is plenty of room to bring a top E string up to pitch. The slug is aluminium because it's light and easy to work. However I'm not satisfied that there's sufficient thread depth for the grub screw which will hold the string. Chances are the string will pull out, or the thread will strip if I overtighten the screw. Next step is to make a slug from brass, which is harder that aluminium
    image
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 3044
    Interesting idea, has potential.
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4943
    @Roland, re your tuning box, it might be more secure if you drilled a string sized hole at right angles to where you have anchored your copper wire 'string' in the pic above. And use the grub screw to secure the string. Fascinating.....
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 3044
    Was think about this while out with the dog last night (!), how about reversing the idea and having the string anchor at the head end, a small block on the end of the neck and a slotted hole in the saddle for the ball end.....
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • WezVWezV Frets: 16543
    paulnb57;951209" said:
    Was think about this while out with the dog last night (!), how about reversing the idea and having the string anchor at the head end, a small block on the end of the neck and a slotted hole in the saddle for the ball end.....

    That's how most non-double ball end headless systems work. You can even get blocks which mount in steinbergers so you can use normal strings
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    That was plan A. If this method works it will be neater. If not I'll revert to plan A, and put a slotted hole where the grub screw is.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    Before making a complete tuner set I wanted to test out the design, and make sure it works before building a guitar around it. In particular I wanted to answer a few questions:

    Will the grub screw hold the string?
    Is a 1cm diameter tuner head large enough to tighten the string?
    Is slug rotation likely to be a problem? (That's why I've used square slugs)
    How much travel is needed to bring a string to tension?

    This afternoon I put together a test rig with the prototype tuner, an L bracket to hold the ball end of the string, and steel bars to represent bridge and nut over a 25.5" scale. The answers are yes, yes, yes and surprisingly little. A G string came up to tension in less than 3.5mm, that's five turns of the screw. Taking the note from G to A was a further 3/4 turn. 

    If anything the tuner isn't sufficiently sensitive. It's built with M4 screws for strength. Standard M4s have 0.7mm per turn. To get better sensitivity would need M3s, which are 0.5mm per turn, and that would mean starting again because the slug and the box are drilled for M4s. There are still more lessons to be learned, so I'm going to press ahead with the present prototype.

    Next step: make five more aluminium tuner heads. Then I can start on body and neck. I'm still not decided about body shape
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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  • paulnb57paulnb57 Frets: 3044
    Excellent! I did wonder about thread pitch and sensitivity…….
    Stranger from another planet welcome to our hole - Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock 'n' roll

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  • NomadNomad Frets: 549

    This place is good for taps and dies in all sorts of weird sizes and threadforms, including some very fine pitch (60tpi)...

    http://www.tracytools.com/

    Note that there's a lot of imperial stuff in there. A set of metric drills in 0.1mm increments will usually yield a tapping drill to suit.

    Nomad
    Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...

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  • SerratusSerratus Frets: 121

    This is mine that I built a couple of years ago. Similar principle to yours, made from brass (obviously I just built the tuning tailpiece and the headstock clamps, not the bridge). It works fine, the only thing I would say is that I would prefer the tuning to be a bit finer, it's a little bit coarse (ie, a small turn of the tuner affects the pitch a little bit too much). Not that I've ever had a problem tuning it.

    http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m622/Serratus1/IMAG0331small_zps166f940a.jpg


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  • BigMonkaBigMonka Frets: 1763
    Sounds like proper engineering going on, great stuff!
    Are you putting a rubber bush on the hole in the aluminium that the string passes through? Or is there no chance of it rubbing?
    Always be yourself! Unless you can be Batman, in which case always be Batman.
    My boss told me "dress for the job you want, not the job you have"... now I'm sat in a disciplinary meeting dressed as Batman.
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  • RolandRoland Frets: 8590
    @Serratus that's a really neat solution. Like the way it's built from parts, rather than housed in a solid chunk of metal. How do you stop your round slugs rotating in the tubes?

    @BigMonka As it stands the steel screw thread doesn't wear the aluminium frame because there are short unthreaded shoulder. I have thought about putting bushings in a production model, but the prototype doesn't need them.

    @Nomad thanks for the link. In the spirit of a cheap build I'm trying to use commonly available bolts. If this subsequently turns into a "production" design then I'll look at a fine thread to give much more precise tuning.
    Tree recycler, and guitarist with  https://www.undercoversband.com/.
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