EU referendum ..... just why?????

axisus

Why are we indulging in this madness?????

It has rent the tories asunder, the public don’t have a clue what to vote for, no-one is giving a shred of decent evidence as to why we should vote one way or the other, there seems to be no actual facts available, lots of people seem to be getting aggressive about their stance, it will change the political landscape (can’t see them all kissing and making up).

It is a crazy proposition. I thought that the whole idea of government was that they are in the best position to make decisions like this. What the hell do we, the public know? Right now it seems like a totally dumb idea, especially as the ‘in’ campaign seem so terminally stressed about leaving. The level of scaremongering has reached fever pitch from their side.  Surely the Tories won’t all sing off the same song sheet afterwards? If nothing else I really hope it brings this government down, or at the very least Cameron falls on his sword (after plunging a knife through Osbourne’s Cerebral Cortex)*

* metaphorically speaking**

** not really .....

crunchman

If Cameron hadn't promised the referendum the Tories would have lost a lot of votes to UKIP and lost the election.  It was a cynical vote grabbing ploy.  That's why we are having it.

I'm certain Cameron didn't want it but he was hoping to put the issue to bed.  I think it has backfired on him.

Evilmags

Cameron is toast after project fear.

randella

I suspect if we leave then Cameron will fall on his sword, leaving Boris and all the other "out" brigade to take the helm, shifting the Tory party further to the right.

If we stay then I reckon there's a good chance the Tories will implode like they did under Major.

Evilmags

After project fear Cameron won't have a majority.

crunchman

Further to my post above, Cameron promised it in the manifesto when the polls predicted that the best he could hope for was another coalition deal.  He could then have reluctantly sacrificed it as part of a coalition agreement.

Evilmags

No lib dems left now though. Boris will crush Osbourne after this.

Chalky

And puhlease stop complaining about the 'lack' of facts and evidence! There is plenty but everyone expects it to be plain and simple. Can you imagine if they were judges in a murder trial?

Newly-appointed Joe Public judge - "Well I've listened to all the complicated evidence but I can't be arsed so I just want to simplify this down to one question. Now, how do I ask the dead guy who killed him?"

Fretwired

The referendum's not binding. If people vote Brexit Cameron could just ignore tham in the national interest.

crunchman

Fretwired said:

The referendum's not binding. If people vote Brexit Cameron could just ignore tham in the national interest of his fat cat corporate buddies.

Corrected for you.

fretmeister

Modulus_Amps

I think if the info is unclear people will not vote for change, I have gone from knowing what I was going to vote to not knowing what I am going to vote based on the garbage information out there.

Anyway as much hate as Cameron gets, he has some balls, he let the Scotts have a Vote and now this vote, if he was to looses either of them he is probably finished, head cut off Game of Thrones style.... figuratively speaking of course

digitalscream

axisus said:

It is a crazy proposition. I thought that the whole idea of government was that they are in the best position to make decisions like this. What the hell do we, the public know? 

That's been my position right from the start. Allowing the public to make this choice - in this way - is utterly retarded. We might as well flip a coin for an equivalent level of knowledge in determining the outcome.

Modulus_Amps said:

I think if the info is unclear people will not vote for change, I have gone from knowing what I was going to vote to not knowing what I am going to vote based on the garbage information out there.

The problem is that too many people genuinely think they do have enough information, when they really don't.

crunchman

Modulus_Amps said:

I think if the info is unclear people will not vote for change, I have gone from knowing what I was going to vote to not knowing what I am going to vote based on the garbage information out there.

Anyway as much hate as Cameron gets, he has some balls, he let the Scotts have a Vote and now this vote, if he was to looses either of them he is probably finished, head cut off Game of Thrones style.... figuratively speaking of course

And he bribed the Scots to stay with the promise to keep the Barnett formula, which even Lord Barnett admitted is unfair.

If Cameron had shown any serious intention to leave then maybe he could have got some better concessions out of Europe.

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

No lib dems left now though. Boris will crush Osbourne after this.

If Leave don't win, then Boris will have some serious work to do to get back in favour. His performance thus far has been impotent. His bumbling and bluster works when it's about him but it doesn't have the same impact when discussing actual issues. Grayling and IDS have been Grayling and IDS, nothing unexpected there. Gove has been the clear winner. 

randella said:

I suspect if we leave then Cameron will fall on his sword, leaving Boris and all the other "out" brigade to take the helm, shifting the Tory party further to the right.

If we stay then I reckon there's a good chance the Tories will implode like they did under Major.

If we stay, then the pressure will be on the backbenchers and Brexiters to shut up. "Democracy has spoken" will be the call and those grumblebunnies will be asked to listen to how the people voted. 

If we leave, then the push to go further right will mirror the Labour slide away from the Blairite domain. The centrists will grumble, the periphery will argue a bit, and we shall have some fun. 

TTony

axisus said:

I thought that the whole idea of government was that they are in the best position to make decisions like this.

I think, in this case, they abdicated on the grounds that the Tory party would split itself wide open if they voted "out".  Or "in".

So, dodge that issue and let the public decide and maintain Tory harmony.

Except ...

randella said:

If we stay then I reckon there's a good chance the Tories will implode like they did under Major.

... the "outers" supposedly have a list of 100 signatures, ready to force an election contest should we stay in, nicely splitting the party wide open.

Fretwired said:

The referendum's not binding. If people vote Brexit Cameron could just ignore tham in the national interest.

But if he had the balls to do that, he wouldn't have permitted a referendum in the first place.  Plus, if we all vote OUT, there's a fair chance Cameron's big decision will be what to watch on daytime TV rather than heading off to No10.

Of course, if we vote OUT, Boris stands a fair chance of taking over as PM.  Voting OUT will trigger another Scots independence vote (which will be a decisive OUT too this time), and they'll then try to rejoin the EU as an independent nation.  

I'm planning on heading North.  I reckon Sturgey would do a far better job of negotiating fair terms with the EU than Cameron did.  

crunchman

@TTony if your scenario plays out the and Scots want to rejoin the EU as an independent nation that would mean joining the Euro.  It's non-negotiable for new members.  I'm not sure that they would be willing to sign up for that.

fields5069

Apparently, right, the only people who can vote, yeah, are people who are registered to vote! The bloody sneaky bastards.

CabbageCat

Yeah, the proportion of people who are prepared to actually look for real information is very small, and only a fraction of those will be looking for anything other than evidence to back up a decision that they have already made. The movers and shakers aren't going to waste time appealing to the minority of a minority so they make up shite to sway the partially-interested majority. I think the "in" PR team (or "project fear" as I suspect we will be inflicted with for weeks until Mags finds a new buzzword) has an easier job of it because they have a whole raft of potential disasters to imagine, the "out" spinsters can only really stay within the realms of the conceivable since we've been in the EU for decades so "being in the EU exposes us to T-Rex attacks!" might raise eyebrows.  

Fretwired

TTony said:

Fretwired said:

The referendum's not binding. If people vote Brexit Cameron could just ignore tham in the national interest.

But if he had the balls to do that, he wouldn't have permitted a referendum in the first place.  Plus, if we all vote OUT, there's a fair chance Cameron's big decision will be what to watch on daytime TV rather than heading off to No10.

Of course, if we vote OUT, Boris stands a fair chance of taking over as PM.  Voting OUT will trigger another Scots independence vote (which will be a decisive OUT too this time), and they'll then try to rejoin the EU as an independent nation.  

I'm planning on heading North.  I reckon Sturgey would do a far better job of negotiating fair terms with the EU than Cameron did.  

I think Boris is banking on Cameron winning. The Independent estimates that 165 Tories are learning towards Brexit so if Cameron wins he's toast. Those 165 will want a PM who is Eurosceptic and will look to a referendum in the future now that the genie is out of the bottle - if Osborne takes over they will just cause trouble. However the maths are against Osborne. Boris will be the next PM.

Sturgeon's probably the most competant politician in the UK. The difference between her and Cameron is she wouldn't have tried in the first place nor made bold claims like Cameron. The UK is out of favour in the EU and the eastern European nations don't like the way their nations are picked on by Eurosceptic Tories as scroungers. There is no way any country could get a deal with all 27 states .. Cameron was on a fools errand.

Sporky

CabbageCat said:

"project fear" as I suspect we will be inflicted with for weeks until Mags finds a new buzzword

It makes a change from "culture of envy".