Learning Notes on the Fretboard

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andypandyp Frets: 332
Hi folks.

I've been learning for 18 months now and am still making really good, noticeable progress and my motivation to keep learning is as high as ever. But I really want to get into learning theory to go with my practice so that I can hopefully apply this to come up with my own stuff as well as just learn scales and songs I know etc. I do make up wee riffs and stuff already though, but very limited ones and I'm hoping that learning theory would open things out much more for me.

One of the key goals I've had is to learn the notes on the board and I still can't find a good way of doing this to make it interesting. I just count up the neck saying the notes and get bored after no time at all. Is there a more interesting way to do this? I downloaded JustinGuitar's app for this but even then I find it hard work to actually apply myself to do it.

I think i just need to suck it up and old-school memorise this stuff... but it would be great if anyone had any tips to help me along.

Thanks.

Andy
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited June 2016
    There is a game attributed to Pat Metheny that helps with this.

    Set your phone to its stopwatch (or use a stopwatch) and nominate one note (let's say Eb).
    You have to locate all of the Eb notes on the fingerboard.
    Once you've done it record your time.
    Go through the rest of the intervals over time.

    It is a good idea to do it in small chunks- so doing this exercise with one interval x 5 times a day is better than sitting down and doing it for an hour and then not doing it again for a week.

    Don't rush- although you are timing yourself you won't do yourself any favours if you don't work through this logically and methodically.
    You an count up from the open strings, or use octaves as locaters- whatever works.


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  • bluechargeboybluechargeboy Frets: 1894
    I used to draw a picture of the whole neck and write down the notes on it. You can see the patterns, humans are good at that. Then you can also see how scales exist and connect all over the neck and not just in discrete places.

    Of course you may find this only marginally less boring!!
    I'm just a Maserati in a world of Kias.
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    Thanks guys.

    You've reminded me - I drew up a guitar neck in Excel for this exact purpose and I've never done anything with it. I will fix that today. Print a heap off and make myself fill one in a couple of times a night for the next wee while.

    I does seem like it's just a case of memorising this, but I had to do that with chords etc. and although this is a much bigger picture to remember I'll manage it - I just need a method.


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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    No worries, happy to help.
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  • RockerRocker Frets: 4942
    Work on one position at a time. Take the fifth fret and learn the notes then the notes either side of the fifth fret. Get them down before including the two frets either side of the fifth... And so on. Be patient and thorough...
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [Albert Einstein]

    Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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  • GuyBodenGuyBoden Frets: 733
    andyp said:
    Hi folks.

    I've been learning for 18 months now and am still making really good, noticeable progress and my motivation to keep learning is as high as ever. But I really want to get into learning theory to go with my practice so that I can hopefully apply this to come up with my own stuff as well as just learn scales and songs I know etc. I do make up wee riffs and stuff already though, but very limited ones and I'm hoping that learning theory would open things out much more for me.

    One of the key goals I've had is to learn the notes on the board and I still can't find a good way of doing this to make it interesting. I just count up the neck saying the notes and get bored after no time at all. Is there a more interesting way to do this? I downloaded JustinGuitar's app for this but even then I find it hard work to actually apply myself to do it.

    I think i just need to suck it up and old-school memorise this stuff... but it would be great if anyone had any tips to help me along.

    Thanks.

    Andy
    Do you really need to know the whole fretboard for the style of music you play?

    Maybe you only need to know the common keys?

    I started in my teenage years, learning each position with Classical guitar lessons, it took many, many years, I don't think you can learn the whole fretboard quickly and retain the information. I learned a bit at a time, played the same melodies, but in every position and different keys. I used to play a lot of Jazz standards, so knowing the fretboard was fairly essential.

    If you're interested in 3NPS, there's a whole series of lessons here:
    http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/43139/learning-the-fretboard-using-3-notes-per-string-patterns-3nps/p1
    "Music makes the rules, music is not made from the rules."
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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Depends if it's Notes or Reading notation.  Notes is a fairly striaghtforward, if boring job.  Relating dots to frets/strings is a longer term aspiration I've found.


    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    Hmmm. Thanks for these comments too guys. I'm basically just wanting to know what note I'm playing and where to go next to make it sound good.

    I think the one step at a time thing makes sense. Most books / lessons seem to say start with the 6th string, then the 5th etc.

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  • JalapenoJalapeno Frets: 6378
    Well you know the 5th & 6th if you play barre chords

    1st is same as 6th, only leaves 3

    4th is same as 6th but down a tone

    3rd is same as 5th but down a tone

    2nd is the only one really (same as 5th up a tone)
    Imagine something sharp and witty here ......

    Feedback
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    I like this logic!

    I do play bar chords and power chord shapes quite a lot. This is the main reason I wanted to learn the root note names so I knew what chord I was playing without having to think about it too much.

    My mission now is to learn the 6th and 5th strings off pat, then I'll take it from there.

    Cheers!
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  • gingerbbmgingerbbm Frets: 33
    Mike Outram showed me the idea of playing with a metronome Eb, say, on every string on each beat, then another note, through all 12. Do it every time you pick up the guitar. Takes 2 minutes max. He suggested a particular order of notes - can't recall what that is right now.

    Suffice to say I got out of the habit and in any case was starting to think I was just relying on muscle memory than actually knowing where the next note is...
    Here's my trading feedback thread: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/61795/
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  • dtrdtr Frets: 1037
    edited June 2016
    image

    Good shapes to know.  Obviously that pic is showing all the Es, but the shapes are the same whatever the note (shift everything up one fret and you'll have all Fs).

    If you've got these shapes sorted, and know the notes on the 6th (& 1st) and 5th strings it gets a lot quicker to find your way around.
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  • ArchtopDaveArchtopDave Frets: 1367
    andyp said:
    Hmmm. Thanks for these comments too guys. I'm basically just wanting to know what note I'm playing and where to go next to make it sound good.

    Knowing what note you are playing to a fair extent comes from practice, and deliberately working out the name of the note you are playing. Working out the next note, which will sound good, is another ball game. It's very useful to be able to be work out the notes making up the chords that you are playing over, as these notes will provide you with  melodic base when used in your soloing.
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    Yeah, this sounds very similar to the lesson I've just had this evening. I asked to cover this type of thing and it's opening up a lot of doors for me already. We spoke about learning the notes on the neck too and my teacher said to start with the 6th and 5th strings and take it from there... it's beginning to gel and make more sense.

    :)
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  • JBS_89JBS_89 Frets: 2
    edited June 2016
    What I personally think is best with theory stuff is to learn a small chunk at a time. It can be boring if done for too long and on it's own, so with this you can easily integrate it into your playing.

    So for example, you are learning your current favourite song/riff. Try and figure out the notes you are playing in that riff. You can refer to a picture of the notes on the fretboard or some point of reference at first (say the 12th fret) and work up or down from there. Later on, you might do it with another riff on another part of the neck. Another great drill is to say the notes as you play them, or even better sing the notes.

    I would say it's better to just organically absorb it over time rather than learn a pattern or system because then you are getting almost into the scale shape territory where people rely on a shape rather than just making music.

    It is incredibly useful because you can begin to target notes you want to land on to link up with a chord and it makes improvising much easier. The more you understand something, the more you can call upon it in different situations. You can take theory further using this approach quite easily also. 

    I think what to take away from this is that we should be consciously thinking about what exactly we are playing when we play. How often do you sit down to play and just noodle or play a half-arsed run through of a song? I do it way too often. A slight shift in mindset leads to huge gains in time, so give it a go and be patient! Best of luck!




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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    edited June 2016
    Thanks @JBS_89 that's really useful perspective. I was slowly coming round to a similar way of thinking, which is kind of how I ended up one day declaring "I want to learn music theory!"

    It does seem already that a little bit at a time is much more effective and sustainable than an out and out blitz. I only really started to look into theory with any real sense of purpose about two weeks ago (although I've been aware of some basic stuff for a while now) and it is already starting to click, but it's been one bit at a time.

    My playing does seem to be seeing a benefit quite quickly but I am trying to shift to the approach where I know the note I'm playing, rather than just playing "8th fret, 6th string" for example. It moved on a bit last night at my lesson - I've been given the C Major scale to work with, and I've to use that to do Blues improv. and expand from there. Already I can see it working and my understanding is growing. I sat last night and goofed about with the Blues scale in C and then adding in barre chords in a "I, IV, V" type thing. So these were C, F and G. I went from a dead end to a wide open road, or that's how it felt anyway. I am going to get this to the stage that I can name the notes and understand what works with what.

    I know this is really basic stuff but it's felt like a pretty big breakthrough. I spent the first 6-8 months of my guitar playing just playing open chords and learning a few scale shapes and barre chords and getting them to the stage where I can do them without thinking. I think having done that it's now meaning I can apply that to practical things but I want to know where to apply it.

    My biggest frustration so far has been that I can hear in my head what I want to play, but can't tell how to actually play it. I think this latest lesson is already getting me on my way. It's really feeling brilliant that I am still so motivated by all this - I just want to capture it and progress every single day.

    I'll keep learning my song list alongside all this too as it does seem to all go hand-in-hand.

    :)


    (sorry for the long, rambling post!)
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  • seany65seany65 Frets: 264
    edited June 2016
    One of the things I do to learn the notes is to:

    Play and name the Open note of a string and then play and name all the notes on the 1st 4 frets of that string, starting with the 6th string, I repeat for each of the other strings. I then play and name all the notes on the 6th string from the 5th to the 8th fret and then repeat for the other strings. I do this all the way up the neck.

    Another thing I've just started to do is only play the notes of the C Major scale up and down each individual string. I then play the A natural minor, A Harmonic minor and then the A melodic minor scales along each string. I've noticed that the Sharps of the Harmonic minor and the sharps up/naturals down of the Melodic minor scales are making me slow down and take more notice of where my fingers are and so keeping my attention on what I'm doing.
     
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  • siraxemansiraxeman Frets: 1935
    Learn the dots...dead easy to do. E strings......fret 3 =G 5=A 7=B 9=C# then 12th=E octave from the ( open string ).the dots 15 17 19 21 are all the same as before ie G A B C# just an octave up.. so E string dots = GABC#E then repeat! A string in like manner = CDEF#A D string = FGABD G string = BbCDEG B string = DEF#G#B learn 1 string at a time but 2 E strings are the same so easy peasy to do in a couple of days going slow. If you know the notes on the dots then if you have already learned the 12 notes aka the musical alphabet then by default you will know what is in between the dots!
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  • andypandyp Frets: 332
    Another really useful idea. Thanks! I've actually done bugger all about learning this since I posted this thread, but I'm going to fix that asap.
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  • UnclePsychosisUnclePsychosis Frets: 12879
    edited June 2016
    dtr said:
    image


    I basically used this method---pick a note (E seems an obvious place to start). 

    Every night for a week for five minutes start at the nut and then play every E, heading up towards the bridge. Go back down as well if you like. 

    Next week: new note.  

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