Are monitors a waste of money for me?

Basher

I've read in a few places that using "proper" studio monitors, even budget ones, in an untreated room is a waste of money.
I've also read that, in the case of nearfield monitors, as long as you are at the optimum listening position you are not hearing too much of the room anyway (or at least not enough that would interfere too disastrously with the audio).

My "studio" (arf arf) is a converted garage room, 5m x 2.3m, and my current "monitors" (more arfing) are a pair of old Technics HiFi speakers being driven by an old NAD amp. Due to the positioning of the doors my listening position is, I believe, entirely wrong as my speakers are halfway down the long wall of the room, whearas most things I've read suggest that positioning them on the short wall would be better for acoustics. Trouble is that it's not easy to reposition the desk and still get access to the room.

Given the crappiness of my setup, would I be wasting my money by upgrading to powered monitors?

I'm very much on a budget (KRK Rockit 5, Yamaha HS5, Adam F5 - that sort of thing) and being useless at DIY, stuff like treating the room would be impossible for me. Everything else is cheap 'n' cheerful too: PC for recording, Komplete Audio 6 interface, Reaper DAW, Behringer B1 mic.

Forgive the usual waffle but I'd appreciate some opinions.

Have added a quick diagram of the room (a picture is worth a thousand words, and all that).

And here's a photo of the room (a picture of the area detailed by the diagram is worth a few thousand more words).

octatonic

It isn't pointless but you are going to have some significant problems to overcome with room acoustics in that configuration.

I can make some suggestions but I'm not sure you'll like them.

Basher

octatonic said:

It isn't pointless but you are going to have some significant problems to overcome with room acoustics in that configuration.

I can make some suggestions but I'm not sure you'll like them.

I suppose this is what I was expecting (the not liking them bit). I could possibly shift the desk 90 degrees and plonk it under the window but I can't imagine it being any better?

octatonic

Basher said:

octatonic said:

It isn't pointless but you are going to have some significant problems to overcome with room acoustics in that configuration.

I can make some suggestions but I'm not sure you'll like them.

I suppose this is what I was expecting (the not liking them bit). I could possibly shift the desk 90 degrees and plonk it under the window but I can't imagine it being any better?

That will help immensely, actually, especially if you pull the table back a couple of feet from the window.

I would also get rid of the metal racking- do you need to have all those cases immediately accessible?

A couple of wall mounted bass trips would help greatly too.

Basher

octatonic said:

Basher said:

octatonic said:

It isn't pointless but you are going to have some significant problems to overcome with room acoustics in that configuration.

I can make some suggestions but I'm not sure you'll like them.

I suppose this is what I was expecting (the not liking them bit). I could possibly shift the desk 90 degrees and plonk it under the window but I can't imagine it being any better?

That will help immensely, actually, especially if you pull the table back a couple of feet from the window.

I would also get rid of the metal racking- do you need to have all those cases immediately accessible?

A couple of wall mounted bass trips would help greatly too.

The cases are a problem. I have more guitars than cases and I've already got a few stashed in the cupboard.
The Mrs would be rather less than keen to see my cases migrate to the rest of the house so, unless I can degas to quite a spectacular extent, I'm a bit stuck.

I guess I just have to ask myself "what's more important, the recording or owning the guitars?". The answer is probably the latter, if only because my recording is so bloody bad. 

Thanks for the help. It's as I expected in that I'm probably not prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to create a passable recording space. At least I'm not wasting money on monitors. Will probably spend it on another guitar and case combo. There's space under the floorboards I've yet to utilise

spark240

Simple idea....fashion some thick material to hang on the racking curtain style?

Bit of curtain wire across the top, car boot material, job done, this would so up a lot of reverb in that room.

Also even the cheapest acoustic foam kits would make a difference on that longer elevation.

You might be surprised, 

http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b525/spark240v/DSC_0007_zps6y2z5kmj.jpg

octatonic

Sorry, acoustic foam isn't a complete waste of time but it doesn't work very well on lower frequencies so you end up with an unbalanced room.

octatonic

Basher said:

octatonic said:

Basher said:

octatonic said:

It isn't pointless but you are going to have some significant problems to overcome with room acoustics in that configuration.

I can make some suggestions but I'm not sure you'll like them.

I suppose this is what I was expecting (the not liking them bit). I could possibly shift the desk 90 degrees and plonk it under the window but I can't imagine it being any better?

That will help immensely, actually, especially if you pull the table back a couple of feet from the window.

I would also get rid of the metal racking- do you need to have all those cases immediately accessible?

A couple of wall mounted bass trips would help greatly too.

The cases are a problem. I have more guitars than cases and I've already got a few stashed in the cupboard.
The Mrs would be rather less than keen to see my cases migrate to the rest of the house so, unless I can degas to quite a spectacular extent, I'm a bit stuck.

I guess I just have to ask myself "what's more important, the recording or owning the guitars?". The answer is probably the latter, if only because my recording is so bloody bad. 

Thanks for the help. It's as I expected in that I'm probably not prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to create a passable recording space. At least I'm not wasting money on monitors. Will probably spend it on another guitar and case combo. There's space under the floorboards I've yet to utilise

Get some decent headphones or mixing grade in ear monitors.

I use some IEMS for on the move mixing- it isn't up there with my mix room in terms of clarity but it is pretty good.

spark240

My room is a million miles from perfect....but I get good reviews of my mixes...?

work that out !

John_P

spark240;1130526" said:

My room is a million miles from perfect....but I get good reviews of my mixes...?

work that out !

If you listen to a lot of music in that room then your ears can adjust for it, a wel treated room will always be the ideal but spending time getting to know the sound of a room and monitors is very worthwhile.

octatonic

I've mixed in all sorts of rooms.

I've done mixes in untreated bedrooms- I can do it, no problem but it takes more work.

Having good gear in a great room just makes it easier.

In my current room it just takes me less time and is more pleasurable to do.

sweepy

What about storing the guitar cases in the loft ?, obviously minus guitar . I'd buy some Mo-pads, for decoupling the speakers from the desk first, cheap and very effective

steamabacus

I'm in a similar position of having the luxury of having a dedicated room for my 'studio' but limitations of less-than-ideal acoustics and quite limited budget. And I live in a rented property so I'm limited with whatever room treatment I could undertake even if I could afford it.

I'd say there are far more useful things you could do with your budget than buy some budget powered monitors. There are three things that stand out from my own experience that I think would be advisable to you in your situation (and echoing much of what's said above).

1) Get some acoustic foam supports to decouple the speakers from the desk. I went the easy but slightly more expensive route of buying some 'MoPads' but you could save money and diy it with some dense acoustic foam pads. Also experiment with moving the speakers away from the wall as much as is convenient - just a little repositioning can have surprisingly good results.

2) Rather than investing in new monitors, I think you'd be better investing in some decent reference headphones. I picked up some Shure SR1440s for around £165 and they've made it so much easier to hear details and judge what's going on when mixing (especially around the bass and lower midrange area). You don't have to use them all the time but they can be invaluable in conjunction with your room monitors when it comes down to the nitty-gritty details.

3) Ear training. Learn how to judge the limitations of your setup more accurately so that you are not fooled by your acoustic environment into making the wrong mixing decisions. I did a free online course at Queens University Belfast in critical listening which was invaluable (although quite challenging). They run the course at regular intervals and there is another one starting soon ("mid 2016") - https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/critical-listening-for-studio-production

Hope that's all of some help.

Winny_Pooh

Better monitors will sound better even if the space is bad, definitely do upgrade or try mixing with some good quality open backed cans (more fatiguing though & can mean you exaggerate certain bad habits)

Some good advice from Doc Oc above, however if you don't move the desk you can get a slight improvement byraising the shelves behind you to diffuse and absorb the sound a bit.

Danny1969

I never and still don't mix anything in active studio monitors. I brought some, listened to them and sold em, brought some more and sold them as well. I always got much better results using good bookshelf speakers and a high quality amp. My fave's were some concentric driver Goodman's but the other guys hated them so we ended up with those, Yam NS10's and some Panasonic's plus a small pair of HK computer speakers. 

So my tip is always a quality powerful amp and decent passive speakers. Won't break the bank if you buy used. 

Treating your room correctly with basstraps, diffusion and broadband absorbers isn't an option, it's too small. What I would do is just monitor quite quietly across more than one set of speakers. Very often your better off checking the level of vocals in small computer speakers than anything else, it's a trick Bob Clearmountain use's and I know a lot of other people do as it's very revealing. The lower the volume the less influence your room has but cranking the mix every now and then just to check is OK. Also keep burning the mixs to CD and check em in the car and any other system you come across. We often check ours through PA systems at gig's to see how they stand up in that environment. Make mental notes and your begin to learn what restrictions your room is doing and how to compensate even though at the time it might not sound as good. 

Don't let it put you off, some amazing records have been made and mixed in some shit spaces 

Evildurka

Someone is selling a set of Genelec 8040's in the classifieds at the moment. If they haven't gone I would highly recommend buying them if your budget will stretch to about £650.

Basher

Thank you for so many informative responses!
I suppose I need to clarify that I've no ambitions to produce anything amazing. I just bash out the odd instrumental track or occasionally record a cover version of something (the wife sings), just as a hobby.

@octatonic I'm still considering my options. As far as the shelving goes I'm thinking of getting rid of a few guitars that I use less than the others. There are three (and possibly an acoustic) that could probably go. (I'm also wondering if i really need a bouzouki and two mandolins!) I'm just not the best at degassing.

@spark240 I guess you might just have a pretty good set of ears on you! Either that or natural talent. I have neither: my first gig (Motorhead in '79) probably put paid to any kind of production career! On another note, nice to see a fellow Impulse user!
Also, I'm not sure about the foam but I saw a video of a Q&A with the bloke from Sound on Sound and one of the things he recommends for budget recordings is a cheap polyester duvet. As with your suggestion, you can put hooks on it and hand it up when recording and it's supposed to help (within reason).

@sweepy If you'd seen our loft, you'd realise that isn't an option! I also think it's full of bees at the moment. I hadn't considered the pads with my crappy speakers though. I'll look into those.

@steamabacus Having heard your stuff in the composition challenges, it's clear you know what you're doing with this recording malarkey! The pads sound like a great idea (as sweepy suggested). Posh cans are something I gag at the thought of spending lots of money on, particularly as I badly need some closed ones for tracking acoustics and vocals. I've been on the waiting list for that course for what seems like an age. It may have been you that put me on to it. I really hope they eventually run it again!

@Winny_Pooh I am considering reducing/dissasembling at least some of the shelving. Over the years, I've found that having storage space just encourages me to buy, or at least hold onto, more stuff. A declutter will probably a worthwhile exercise, if only for the good of my soul. 

@Danny1969 so much to think about there! I've heard of the idea of listening to mixes on different speakers and in different locations. When I have done this, my usual reaction is along the lines of "what the hell was I thinking of mixing the vocals/bass/drums etc. so loud". Occasionally I'll become hyper aware of a particular cymbal and it'll grate like hell on me!
I suppose I'm a bit saddened about the monitors not being of any use - I just think I like the idea of owning some! What's odd is that I once tried my other hi-fi speakers, some more expensive Mission ones (though still budget bookshelf models), with that setup and the older, cheaper Technics sounded much better. 

@Evildurka I did see the Genelecs. Even used they're almost twice what I'd put aside for speakers so, although I could afford them, I'm not sure I could justify them, particularly given the comments above about recording in such a boxy, hostile environment. I would love something as nice as Genelecs but I'm not sure my cloth ears and boomy old garage would begin to get the best out of them!

octatonic

The shelving isn't a problem, in itself.

What you want is symmetry in the room.

When I had my studio in NYC I had a window on one side of the mix room.

The solution was to put a mirror up on the opposite wall, so that I had something with roughly the same sort of material on both sides of the room.

Evildurka

If you can afford them buy them good monitors are never a waste of money and genelecs are arguably amongst the best. I have dynaudio's which I got ex demo for a similar sort of price and I don't use them properly but they are a great investment and you certainly wouldn't regret buying them. Now I have a kemper the Dynaudio's will be getting a lot more use.

Also as a point the mission speakers will be fantastic for music that has already been mastered but will not give a flat response. The older technics will come from an era before dub step and drum and bass I am guessing and will be more natural and flat in their response.

Parting shot, an eargasm is always worth it and the genelecs are a steal at that price to provide one

octatonic

I've used the 8040's quite a bit.

That sounds like a great price.

They are very good but be aware that Genelec are quite a flattering speaker, meaning they sound good in the room and the mixes can sometimes not translate to other locations.

The worst speakers for this are made by Mackie- the HR824's are really terrible for this.

The way to work around that is to reference check on other sources- in the car, home stereo, headphones- just to make sure that you aren't hearing the speaker instead of the mix.

This is broadly good advice whatever the speaker, but I've found the the Genelec 80 series to be more prone to this than some other speakers.

The main thing is to learn your speakers and the room.

I've been mixing with Dynaudio's for the last 15 years and currently have some hugely gorgeous and expensive Barefoot Micromains here on loan to see if I want to buy them.

The first mix I did with the Barefoot's was a bit off, because I've been using my DA's for so long I'm just used to them.

Evildurka

I love Dynaudio's