Need some help on specific chord progression

eric_

Okay so I'm working with a chord progression that goes B minor - G Major - F Major. The way this progression is played it resolves to B minor - this is definitely "home". I'm trying to identify what key this is in. The F major is what's throwing me off since you'd expect F# Major if it was in the key of B minor. 

Then I started reading more about modes (something I haven't fully got to grips with to be honest) and started thinking it could be a vii-iii-ii progression in C major giving it a B Locrian feel. But if this was the case shouldn't the opening B chord be B diminished rather than B minor? Could it still just be B minor but with an F major substituted in? Appreciate any info!

stratman3142

I'm not sure but perhaps it could be thought of as a blues/rock type chord progression in D. 
Where you might have a D, F and G major, except the relative minor Bm is substituted for the D.

paul_c2

Its not diatonic - the B minor has an F# in it; and with the chords of F and G, it has a run of semitone-semitone.

Probably best analysed as B minor being a substitution for B diminished (1-m3-b5); then it sits quite well as G mixolydian mode (no sharps or flats in the key signature); or B locrian, since B is the tonal centre. D dorian is a reasonable suggestion too (as above).

Sometimes chord progressions do not have a well-defined tonal centre.

viz

eric_ said:

Okay so I'm working with a chord progression that goes B minor - G Major - F Major. The way this progression is played it resolves to B minor - this is definitely "home". I'm trying to identify what key this is in. The F major is what's throwing me off since you'd expect F# Major if it was in the key of B minor. 

Then I started reading more about modes (something I haven't fully got to grips with to be honest) and started thinking it could be a vii-iii-ii progression in C major giving it a B Locrian feel. But if this was the case shouldn't the opening B chord be B diminished rather than B minor? 

Well it could be but that's really the wrong-way-round of thinking about it. The chords that you are playing are the thing that the theory has to describe; the theory doesn't somehow tell you you're playing the chords wrongly. 

So you're in Bm; that's the i chord - it's your home chord and has a proper 5th; then you have the VI chord; then you go to this odd augmented 4th chord or bV chord, which is not diatonic to Bm (so nothing to do with modes per se), but is just a chromatic chord, probably intended to slide up to the V chord (the F# as you say). 

It's reminiscent of a German or Italian 6th, but isn't quite. Performs the same function though. 

It's nice. Sounds menacing. 

eric_

Thanks for the responses guys. Much appreciated.

paul_c2 said:

Its not diatonic - the B minor has an F# in it; and with the chords of F and G, it has a run of semitone-semitone.

Probably best analysed as B minor being a substitution for B diminished (1-m3-b5); then it sits quite well as G mixolydian mode (no sharps or flats in the key signature); or B locrian, since B is the tonal centre. D dorian is a reasonable suggestion too (as above).

Sometimes chord progressions do not have a well-defined tonal centre.

I understand why B Locrian works, since the progression resolves back to B. However what makes G mixolydian a good option here? I know there's obviously a G major chord in the progression, but from a theory perspective, how/why would G mixolydian work over the B minor and F Major chords?

Likewise with D dorian - why would this work? Is it because D is the minor third in B minor and the fifth in G Major? If so where where does that leave you over the F major?

Lastly (this goes to anyone who wants to chime in), if you were to improvise or come up with some melody lines over this what approach would you take? I know there's no one set way of doing this but just trying to get an idea of how other musicians do it. Would you go for something like B Locrian over all three chords? I assume you would need to change the emphasis to the root of the chord your playing over. But would that mean B locrian over B minor, G mixolydian over G major, and F lydian over F Major?

Thanks in advance!

paul_c2

G mixolydian sits well over F major-G major. D dorian and B locrian are the same notes with a different tonal centre (its the notes of the C ionian (major) scale). Since the tonal centre isn't that well defined, its not massively important to say "B locrian is right, D dorian is wrong". As for improvising over it, it would be worth certainly being aware of the chord changes, I'd try as a first try, G mixolydian mainly and an arpeggio over the B chord.

viz

eric_ said:

Lastly (this goes to anyone who wants to chime in), if you were to improvise or come up with some melody lines over this what approach would you take? I know there's no one set way of doing this but just trying to get an idea of how other musicians do it. Would you go for something like B Locrian over all three chords? I assume you would need to change the emphasis to the root of the chord your playing over. But would that mean B locrian over B minor, G mixolydian over G major, and F lydian over F Major?

Thanks in advance!

Hi, I would definitely not constrain yourself to thinking of it as only B locrian, as locrian is a difficult mode to write in - Prokofiev tried it once but on the whole its really rare because it's so unstable and keeps sounding like a dominant chord, 2 tones down (ie G mixo) - and because as you've said, Bm is the tonal centre. There's nothing wrong with breaking out of diatonic; music often does that, especially when it gets interesting, which is exactly what you're achieving when you move to that chord.

So you could try melodies that really bring out the nuance of that chord, for example, start based around the first 3 degrees of Bm (B, C#, D), which works for the 2nd chord as well; then when it goes to the 3rd chord, you could play Bb, C, D. In other words the 2 lower notes switch down a semitone. Very juicy. You'd be playing the 4th, 5th and 6th notes of that F chord. If you played the B and C# together and let them ring out over the first chord change, then slid down a fret on both strings for the 3rd chord it would sound cool. 

stratman3142

If I improvise over the sequence my ear leads me to play B Aeolian mode over the Bm, then D Dorian over the F and G.

When I say D Dorian, that's just how I choose to think about it. It's the same notes as G Mixolydian etc as stated earlier.

viz

Yes ^ nice

ArchtopDave

I very much base my improvisation technique on using the chord tones of the chord I'm playing over. You can use the specific differences between the chords to accent how you're playing the changes.Then you can add some chromaticism, or drop in some relevant scalar sections as you wish.

Barney

Iv just played along with the chords and iv found for the first Bm and G chords ..D major scale fits well...then F to G use D Dorian....oops dosnt go back to the G but will still apply without 

IvanMC

Isn't that F just a Modal Interchange where F should take a Lydian chord scale? I think, depending on how you develop the whole thing, that that F could bring about a pretty interesting "colour" to that progression.

bingefeller

The F could also be seen as a tritone sub - say you have a Bm to G vamp, the F would work in place the of Bm and then you could resolve it to Bm, which is another way to look at what's happening here.  

viz

bingefeller said:

The F could also be seen as a tritone sub - say you have a Bm to G vamp, the F would work in place the of Bm and then you could resolve it to Bm, which is another way to look at what's happening here.  

Though tritone subs really rely on the major 3rd and dominant 7th to swap roles, don't they, so the Bm's minor 3rd is problematic. 

Brad

Play the note F over the Bm, G and F chords. How does that sound? Play the note F# over Bm and G and the F over F maj. Now how does that sound?

Stick the notes of G and Bm together and you get a G Major 7th Arp - those chords are related. Either as I and iii in G or IV and vi in D.   

Any major chord not in the key often gets treated with a Lydian sound. What works for me is...

Bm - B Aeolian - B C# D E F# G A
G - G Lydian - G A B C# D E F#
F - F Lydian - F G A B C D E

These scales negate the problematic perfect 4th over the major chords. B Aeolian and G Lydian share the same parent scale (D Ionian), but try and think individually so you hear the character of each mode over each chord.

For a darker sound you could try,

B Phyrgian
G Ionian
F Lydian

But be careful of that C natural. It will be qualified by the F chord in the end, but it will sound a little uncomfortable if not harnessed correctly.

It's a nice chord progression :-)

bingefeller

viz said:

bingefeller said:

The F could also be seen as a tritone sub - say you have a Bm to G vamp, the F would work in place the of Bm and then you could resolve it to Bm, which is another way to look at what's happening here.  

Though tritone subs really rely on the major 3rd and dominant 7th to swap roles, don't they, so the Bm's minor 3rd is problematic. 

Traditionally yes, but I've heard Tim Miller using major tritone subs over minor chords, especially when lead playing.  

viz

@bingefeller Nice, I'll have a listen - thanks!