Laney VC30 - seeking amp re-valve advice

Voxman

I bought my VC30-210 in 2009 -  IMHO these are cracking amps (built to a budget, I know) that are very under-rated.  I play mainly classic rock & blues, and the 2x10" Jensen C10Q16's are excellent and really give the amp a more 'vintage' vibe that makes a nice change from a 2x12" amp (which can sometimes be a little 'dark').  I also have the GS112VE extn cab fitted with a Celestion Seventy Eighty.  Perhaps not the most inspiring speaker on it's own, but it actually works very nicely with the Jensen's, adding just a bit more bottom end and body without 'overpowering' the Jensen's. In truth, my VC30 rig hasn't had as much use as some of my other amps partly because it's so loud and I can't use at home as often as I'd like!  (I'm not looking to get an attenuator though). 

I've just replaced the phase invertor, with a Chinese Ruby 12AX7, as the original TAD valve 'went', but the other TAD stock valves still seem to be going strong and although there is a some faint background 'spluttering', the tone is still good, the clean channel is still bright/sparkly, and its still as loud as heck! (unbelievably so for a 30w amp - with an extn cab it's actually held its own against a 100w Marshall JCM2000 valve head & 4x12 cab) but then it does have some similarity with an AC30, and the 2x10" Jensen's make it very punchy in the mix). 

So, to get to the rub, I think it's still probably time for a full re-valve to get the best out of it.  A set of JJ's are around £80
(http://vocrock.com/jj-revalve-kit-for-laney-vc30-amp/)  but Watford Valves do a Harma revalve kit for £110 - not cheap but this sounds as if it could be a good choice:

The Laney Classic Retro full revalve kit is designed to give you an instant upgrade over the standard Chinese valves by improving a number of important characteristics.

It covers the Laney VC30-210, VC30-122 and VC30-212 combos and gives your Laney the Classic British Rock tone.

This is done by using modern day production ECC83 Harma Retro and EL84 valves are traditionally voiced to sound as close to the original Mullard valves as possible.

The Harma ECC83 Retros provide a harmonically rich and detailed sound with 3D midrange warmth that produces a huge sustaining tone. The outstanding feature of this valve is it smooth linear midrange response and extended frequency response so you get smooth warm overdrive with tight fat punchy lows.

The EL84 Retro has a deep well defined tight bass that produces the classic slam of the Mullard in the bottom end. The midrange performance has been tweaked to provide warm clear detail at low volumes with clear articulation and smooth even distortion when the amplifier is cranked. 

This combination removes the High end fizz and the rather dull distortion characteristic which is the most common complaint levelled at this amplifier and brings the amplifiers sound back to life.
You will get improvements in such as a crystal clear top end with more extension and clarity when used clean. When using the overdriven settings the valves combined characteristics provide a warm sustaining sound with plenty of upper harmonics with excellent projection on solos.

The Kit consists of 7 valves.

2 x Specially Selected Harma ECC83-Retro 
1 x Specially Selected & Balanced Harma ECC83-Retro for the phase splitter
4 x Specially Selected Harma EL84-Retro in a matched Quad.

I put hand-tested premium JJ's in my Laney Cub12R and these do sound very good,but I've read that regular JJ's tend to better suit Class A/B rather than Class A amps, as in the latter they can sometimes be overly bright and a little harsh/sterile sometimes.

The Harma set description looks ideal for what I'm looking for and look favourite at the moment. My best understanding is that Harma's are Watford Valves own branded 'specially selected' JJ valves.  Harma's have had excellent reviews but I'm unclear as to whether these are genuinely  better than, and justify the extra cost, as compared to a 'regular' £80 JJ set.  

Please educate me me here guys - I'd welcome any wisdom here on Harma valves and any alternative valve suggestions from FB amp experts or anyone that has, or is very familiar with the VC30.  

Cheers

Rich 

ICBM

Watch out that you don't get sucked into a lot of marketing hype/BS.

The 'Class' of the amp has nothing whatever to do with what valves are suitable for it, or the voicing. Especially as almost are not Class A, including the Laney - it's cathode-biased Class AB, like almost all so-called Class A amps.

No modern valves sound like Mullards. Not even the 'reissue Mullards', which aren't - they're just modern valves with the name on.

You do not ever need a 'balanced' valve for the phase inverter. The circuit is inherently unbalanced anyway.

I would describe JJs as dark and harsh rather than bright - I know that sounds like an odd combination. I like their EL84s because they're tough - and that does make them more suitable for hot-running cathode-biased amps - but not their preamp valves at all.

Watford Valves prices don't include VAT either…

I would get the same valves for less and without the BS from Karltone - probably JJ EL84s, and for the preamp a choice of EH (bright-ish and quite 'harmonic' sounding, a good V1), Sovtek (smoother and a bit fuzzy, but can be good) or standard Shuguang 12AX7s. The Sovtek LPS seems to be popular as a phase inverter but I can't say I've noticed much difference.

Just my opinion, obviously.

Voxman

Thanks ICBM, very helpful and informative as always.  I hadn't realised WV prices didn't include VAT - wow, that makes them very expensive indeed!  With Karltone a matched Quad set of EL84's is only £41 and three premium tested EH Russian 12AX7's are £29.25 - so at around £70 these are half the WV price!!  And delivery is cheaper too - thank you for the heads-up!

I was aware that amps like the VC30 and AC30 are not true class A - but confusingly some manufacturers still describe their amps as Class A.  I think Vox no longer uses the Class A description but :

Laney still describes the VC30 as:

" A British classic, the VC30-212 delivers 30 watts RMS of pure CLASS A guitar tone.  The VC30-212 houses a 30 watt Class A output stage powered by a quartet of EL84 tubes. The Class A design is uniquely responsive to player touch ... "

And Matchless describes it's DC30 as 
'true Class A configuration'

Just had a look on the Karltone site - JJEL84's (matched Quad) seem to be out of stock currently.  For the 12AX7 there are two options for the EH - premium tested and balanced triodes premium tested.  Are balanced triodes in V1 or V2 good/bad/indifferent ? (I note that for V3 - the phase invertor - you said balanced isn't needed).

I didn't want anything 'fuzzy' so was thinking of keeping it simple and not 'mixing' the 12AX7's, but probably going with the Russian EH 12AX7 for each pre-amp, and the JJ's for the power valves.  

ICBM

A balanced valve isn't needed in any position in any musical instrument amp - even very high-powered KT88/6550-type amps where there is a dual driver stage after the phase inverter aren't inherently balanced enough in the circuit for it to matter.

There is *some* evidence that you might get a better quality valve by picking a balanced one though - because it means both halves are more likely to be in the middle of the design spec range - it's less likely that you'll find an out-of-spec valve with both sides *equally* out of spec, if that makes sense...

Voxman

ICBM said:

A balanced valve isn't needed in any position in any musical instrument amp - even very high-powered KT88/6550-type amps where there is a dual driver stage after the phase inverter aren't inherently balanced enough in the circuit for it to matter.

There is *some* evidence that you might get a better quality valve by picking a balanced one though - because it means both halves are more likely to be in the middle of the design spec range - it's less likely that you'll find an out-of-spec valve with both sides *equally* out of spec, if that makes sense...

I think I understand what you're saying.  But where the valves are premium tested and burnt for 30-40 hrs as per Karltone, doesn't this mean that any 'anomalies' would be caught anyway?  

However, it's only about £3-4 more in total to go for the balanced triode EH's anyway - so for that cost I'm thinking 'what the heck' & might as well go 'balanced' for all 3 pre-amp valves.  

ICBM

Voxman said:

But where the valves are premium tested and burnt for 30-40 hrs as per Karltone, doesn't this mean that any 'anomalies' would be caught anyway?

Hopefully, yes. And to date I've had only one faulty valve from Karltone - which he replaced immediately without even wanting the bad one back, unlike certain other vendors…

Voxman said:

However, it's only about £3-4 more in total to go for the balanced triode EH's anyway - so for that cost I'm thinking 'what the heck' & might as well go 'balanced' for all 3 pre-amp valves.  

As long as you know you're paying for a probably closer-to-centre-design-spec valve and not that the balancing makes any difference, I don't see why not!

andy1839

I've just revalved my Matchless. 

There wasn't anything wrong with it, sounded great but I had the chance last week to get eight NOS 1960's Mullard 12AX7's and an ECC81 (don't know what the 12A.. designation is) all made in Blackburn in the same week.

I've never changed preamp valves before in an amp, only power valves. 
But I can say there was such a marked difference in the sound of the amp.  I really don't want to start being flowery and gush too much but honestly it's the best thing I've done.  The amp now sounds better than I could ever have imagined.

I was worried that it wouldn't make any difference, but It does. 
I only changed the three preamp valves and the ECC81 for the PI.  The two in the reverb circuit I didn't bother with as that's always turned off. 

Two new JJ EL34's as well, but they were in a couple of weeks earlier so I know it's not them that's made it noticeably better. 

Certainly made me reassess what I thought was snake oil. 

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

The 'Class' of the amp has nothing whatever to do with what valves are suitable for it, or the voicing. Especially as almost are not Class A, including the Laney - it's cathode-biased Class AB, like almost all so-called Class A amps.

Don't want to derail the thread, but I thought some of the VC series wasn't cathode-biased? Maybe the VC15?

(Not talking about the older VC50 or 100 which I think were combo versions of the VH100R, a totally different amp.)

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

Don't want to derail the thread, but I thought some of the VC series wasn't cathode-biased? Maybe the VC15?

Yes, that's correct - the VC15 is fixed-bias, although the VC30 is cathode-biased. They do actually describe the VC15 as Class "A/B".

blobb

Funny, I asked exactly the same question a fortnight or so ago, not sure if you have seen that? I like a good bit of Synchronicity!

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/88232/

 Went with a full set of JJ's from ampvalves and a G12H 55 from Hotrox. Quite happy with the outcome.

The biggest thing I notice now, apart from the speaker change, is that I'm starting to blend the power amp and the pre amp. What I mean is this. Before, I would crank the drive up (pre amp gain) to get some 'distortion'. Now I back it off and up the drive volume (power amp) to get a blend.

So I guess the thing I'm noticing is that the power stage is better now than before with stock valves.

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

Don't want to derail the thread, but I thought some of the VC series wasn't cathode-biased? Maybe the VC15?

Yes, that's correct - the VC15 is fixed-bias, although the VC30 is cathode-biased. They do actually describe the VC15 as Class "A/B".

Ah ok, thanks. I guess at least they're consistent in their misuse of technical terms, then.

Voxman

@ICBM - this is an old thread but I just wanted to sense check if since 2016 your valve suggestions might have changed.  I love the VC30 cleans, but I'd like to get a clearer, brighter, more defined Marshally type crunch from the VC30 - I'm not sure if it's the V1 socket that makes the most difference here to the distortion tone (if it's not V1 please point me to the correct one) but which ECC83 would you recommend to help with that?

ICBM

I would stick to Shuguangs, out of the modern valves. An EH or Tung-Sol in V1 for a better clean sound, maybe - but it's V2 which mostly generates the distortion. Shuguangs have that bright/crunchy overdrive sound - but it will never really sound like a Marshall because the EQ is in the wrong place in the circuit for that.

Voxman

ICBM said:

I would stick to Shuguangs, out of the modern valves. An EH or Tung-Sol in V1 for a better clean sound, maybe - but it's V2 which mostly generates the distortion. Shuguangs have that bright/crunchy overdrive sound - but it will never really sound like a Marshall because the EQ is in the wrong place in the circuit for that.

Thanks @ICBM - I realise it's a Laney not a Marshall but I just want to get a bit nearer if I can. Appreciate the clarification re V2 as I wasn't sure. There seem to be a lot of Shuguang 12AX7 - could you explain the differences & possibly recommend a good one for my needs?

ICBM

Voxman said:

There seem to be a lot of Shuguang 12AX7 - could you explain the differences & possibly recommend a good one for my needs?

Any of them. I don't find any real differences in them.

Voxman

ICBM said:

Voxman said:

There seem to be a lot of Shuguang 12AX7 - could you explain the differences & possibly recommend a good one for my needs?

Any of them. I don't find any real differences in them.

OK, thanks