Talk to me about chord progressions!

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Hi all

As I'm starting to get involved with playing with other musicians the problem of chord progressions has cropped up. Essentially my question is do the normal progressions such as I IV V work across all modes. 

For example if we take C major I IV V we had the C F G right which is common. However if I wanted to play in D dorian, would I still be able to use the I IV V progression for a similar feel (although more minor feel) or does each mode have certain progressions that work best with that mode? 

Obviously you could use any progression you liked but if there are common progressions for each mode I would rather start there.

Thanks for any help!
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Comments

  • close2uclose2u Frets: 997
    edited January 2017
    I'm reading this as you taking the mode rather than the progression as the start point. That's a bit back to front imo. And I'm not sure what you are wanting exactly ... to go to Siam and suggest a chord progression that you know your chosen mode works with?
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited January 2017
    Shelders said:
    Hi all

    As I'm starting to get involved with playing with other musicians the problem of chord progressions has cropped up. Essentially my question is do the normal progressions such as I IV V work across all modes. 

    For example if we take C major I IV V we had the C F G right which is common. However if I wanted to play in D dorian, would I still be able to use the I IV V progression for a similar feel (although more minor feel) or does each mode have certain progressions that work best with that mode? 

    Obviously you could use any progression you liked but if there are common progressions for each mode I would rather start there.

    Thanks for any help!
    If I am reading you correctly then I'm not sure you fully understand modal playing.
    You need to distinguish between modes of the major scale and their fingerings on the guitar.

    D Dorian is, as we know, the notes of C major beginning from D.
    In a Blues in C you aren't really playing D Dorian, even if you play it around the 10th fret.
    You can play the D Dorian mode on the guitar but if you are playing it over a C progression then you're really playing C major.

    Here is the best way I've found to think about modes.

    On any D minor chord you can play D Dorian, D Phrygian or D Aeolian.
    On any D major chord you can play D Ionian, D Lydian or D Mixolydian.

    Substitute D for any other note.
    That is essentially what modal playing is.
    Ideally you should be able to play all modes on the guitar in all positions on the neck.
    You don't want to fall into the trap of only knowing, for example, D Dorian at the 10th fret.
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  • Thanks for the replies. Octatonic thats what my understanding of modes is however I think its the way I'm wording my question that's the problem. 

    Lets try this: what chord progression would be classed as D dorian? 

    On a side note, my theory is really patchy hence this muddled question. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    edited January 2017
    Shelders said:
    Thanks for the replies. Octatonic thats what my understanding of modes is however I think its the way I'm wording my question that's the problem. 

    Lets try this: what chord progression would be classed as D dorian? 

    On a side note, my theory is really patchy hence this muddled question. 
    That isn't really how modal playing works.
    You use a mode over a progression or even just a single chord in a progression.
    Any D minor chord can be Dorian/Phrygian/Aeolian.

    For instance, a ii V I in C would be

    Dm7, G7, Cmaj7

    You could play D Dorian over the whole thing but I'd suggest you go at least one step further in order to avoid what Dave Marks calls 'Dorian Wank'.

    Playing modally you could treat each chord as its own thing.

    Over the ii, Dm7 you could play D Dorian, D Aeolian, D Phrygian. You could play lines using all of those modes in a one bar pattern if you like, obviously you need to make it musical, which might be a challenge.

    Over the G7 the mode G mixolydian fits best but with the right phrasing you can incorporate notes from G Lydian or G Ionian.
    What I find works really well is to create a hybrid mode that has the maj7 and the b7 of G as well as the #4/b5- a sort of meta mode.

    Over the I chord you can use lydian or ionian- Ionian is more resolved sounding, lydian has an augmented, unsettled sound.
    You can use mixoldian provided you have some mechanism for addressing the clash of the b7 of the mode against the maj7 of the chord. I find ascending or descending chromatic lines work well (so r, 7, b7 or b7 7, r).

    If you are using triads, rather than 7th chords then you have a bit more latitude, as you don't have clashes against the 7th for the major triad based 7 th chords but with the right phrasing you can make most things work.

    Above all, it needs to be musical- I spent a lot of time working on transitions fro one mode to another- again chromaticism can be a good way into it.
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  • Octatonic thank you! I wish I had your understanding haha. 

    So slightly different question but its related to what I'm trying to figure out. What key is sweet child of mine in? My understanding its based on the G major scale but focuses on the D major, until the solo then it shifts to the E minor. Is this right? I'm ignoring the fact its tuned flat for the sake of making it easier. 
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  • octatonicoctatonic Frets: 33725
    Shelders said:
    Octatonic thank you! I wish I had your understanding haha. 

    So slightly different question but its related to what I'm trying to figure out. What key is sweet child of mine in? My understanding its based on the G major scale but focuses on the D major, until the solo then it shifts to the E minor. Is this right? I'm ignoring the fact its tuned flat for the sake of making it easier. 
    I have actually never played it. :)
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  • BradBrad Frets: 658
    If your theory is really patchy, you need to address this to get what you're looking for. Are you after creating chord progressions in order to work on modal playing/composition or both? In any case I'd suggest it is really important to learn triadic and 7th Chord diatonic theory, as this can be a gateway to thinking modally.

    Lets look at the I IV V you mentioned. As stated above, you couldn't play that in C (C, F and G) and then try and play D Dorian over it, it'll just sound like a vague C major. D Dorian needs a type of D minor chord (m6, m7, m9 etc).

    Try this, treat a I IV V in Dm but using the harmony of C major so...

    i - Dm(7)
    IV - G(7)
    v - Am(7)

    It isn't the whole story, but that will suggest an overall Dorian sound. Let make that Aeolian by thinking in F major. 

    i - Dm(7)
    iv - Gm(7)
    v -Am(7)

    Again, there is more to it than what I've described here, but this could be a starting point. You could treat the 2nd example as three Dorian chords in their own right...

    If you can deal with the shred, dodgy t-shit and slightly awkward delivery, check out Modes No More Mystery by Frank Gambale for more on this subject.
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  • Shelders said:
    Octatonic thank you! I wish I had your understanding haha. 

    So slightly different question but its related to what I'm trying to figure out. What key is sweet child of mine in? My understanding its based on the G major scale but focuses on the D major, until the solo then it shifts to the E minor. Is this right? I'm ignoring the fact its tuned flat for the sake of making it easier. 
    I think in terms of G major, then E harmonic minor for the end section.
    It's not a competition.
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  • If you want a Dorian chord progression most players tend to vamp over a long section that implies the Dorian sound, like a Dm6 chord or a vamp going from Dm7 - Em7.  

    This is the most well known Dorian vamp (16 bars of D Dorian, 8 bars of Eb Dorian and then 8 bars of D Dorian):







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  • vizviz Frets: 10645
    edited January 2017

    The best way of getting a Dorian vibe going is to play a i-IV-i-IV vamp, in other words a minor i chord followed by a major IV chord.

    Examples: Apache, or David Lee Roth's Coconut Grove, or Pink Floyd's Breathe - any minor piece with a major IV chord, as the major third of the IV is that tell-tale raised 6th of the minor i chord. (Or a i-ii vamp as per octa above, because the 5th note of the ii chord is the raised 6th of the i).

    If you just want Aeolian, then it's minor i followed by minor iv. 

    (And if you want phrygian, play a minor i chord followed by a major b2nd chord, eg White Rabbit).


    If you stay true to diatonic modes, the v chord is minor for all 3 minor modes, but that doesn't give an effective dominant effect, so it's very common indeed to use a major V chord for the dominant (though you don't have to if you want a very minor, blue feel). 


    If you do use a major V chord, you basically raise the 7th note of the i scale, so in Aeolian you'd be playing the 5th mode of Harmonic Minor scale ("phrygian dominant") on the V; in Dorian you'd be playing the 5th mode of melodic minor ascending scale (the "Hindu scale") on the V; and in phrygian you'd be playing the 5th mode of the gorgoeous Neapolitan minor scale ("the locrian dominant") on the V. 

    Roland said: Scales are primarily a tool for categorising knowledge, not a rule for what can or cannot be played.
    Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
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